Blaze v. Tigers 21st Nov at GC

[GC Baller]

Important game here for both teams. GC will be looking to bounce back now they have a (close to) full strength squad which could have excused their past two losses in a row. Meanwhile, the Tigs have Homicide on board and will be looking for their first win of the season.

I still think the Blaze will be able to handle the Tigers. Chris Goulding will sit this one out but as long as we have Gibbo to contain Homicide we should be ok. He played 40 mins on debut on Friday night and will be really tired in addition to having to adjust to the Tigers system.

The Tigers much vaunted height can also be neutralised by the Blaze. In Worthington and Ira Clark we have to players who are strong enough to defend Melbourne's big boys but can also get up and down the court. Look for the Blaze to do what any team would do against the Tigers and run them off their feet from the get go.

I am picking James Harvey to have a big game this week. Devendorf is an absolute joke defensively and Homicide isn't much better. Greer makes a difference but will have to probably guard Wortho a lot meaning the Blaze guards can run free. I would also expect Gibbo to start knocking down his jumpers.

If the Blaze heat up like I think we will today, the Tigers can't compete.

Blaze by 8

[need4dt]

If the Tigers can play the same freestyle offence as they did Friday and get the same out of Nev and Homicide (minus the turnovers) they will be right in this. Blaze are shooting terribly from 3 point land, which is probably the main reason why Perth beat us.

[curious]

Wright: Beware the Tigers and Williams.
http://www.theage.com.au/sport/basketball/import-boosts-tigers-20101120-181xz.html

[Wild 1]

Im thinking Gold Coast will win this easily in the end. The same enthusiasm the Tigers showed against Perth may not be there due to a little more fatigue, so I think it may result in a fade-out in the 2nd half.

[rjd]

Anyone found a link to the dunk by Nevill (best ever in the NBL?) mentioned by Carfino during the commentary?

[Jive Turkey]

This blaze team is seriously attrocious

[Alex_Traitor]

Blaze have been hurt by injuries. Put Petrie back in and they are a 10 point better team at least.

Goulding seems to have gone backwards this season though. Seems all the jizzing in the media over his potential prior to the season has affected his output.

Also thinking Greer is pretty underrated.

Why did the Blaze get rid of Ubaka anyway?

[Jive Turkey]

this is disgusting, some of these blaze guys are more interested in looking cool than playing hard. The effort is a joke

[Cussy]

They've still got Gibson, Harvey, Goulding, Wortho, two imports, and Hoare, but they can only manage 22 points first half against the worst team in the league. Injuries aside, they're all playing for themselves right now.

[Alex_Traitor]

Geez Corletto is monay.

Tigers looking much more balanced now. Benching Heliwell was a must, getting two SFs back and Williams has made a big difference. Something tells me they won't be finishing last this season.

Nevill seems to be an afterthought on offence too. This is not a 7 footers league anymore.

[Jive Turkey]

They've still got Gibson, Harvey, Goulding, Wortho, two imports, and Hoare, but they can only manage 22 points first half against the worst team in the league. Injuries aside, they're all playing for themselves right now.

wortho looks like he's there for a holiday

[paul]

Tigers look great. Simple options on offence, going to their strengths, and not closing out too hard so the Blaze have to shoot over their height. Credit to Westover for getting Williams some rest too. I would hate to be a Blaze fan, they just look very disorganised. Of course, they could score 50 points in this second half the way they go up and down.

RJD, the dunk Carfino is talking about was Clark's last week. There is a link in the plays of the week thread. I dont think it is even the best dunk this year, but it is very impressive.

[Alex_Traitor]

It's a great dunk but getting a bit overrated I think.

[de_beers]

They've still got Gibson, Harvey, Goulding, Wortho, two imports, and Hoare, but they can only manage 22 points first half against the worst team in the league. Injuries aside, they're all playing for themselves right now.

Couldn't agree more, very little passing and apart from Harvey running a baseline cut off three screen there's very little movement off the ball as well. It's fantastic that they then ignore Harvey off that cut almost every time.

[Alex_Traitor]

Hey Joycefan did you get on $8.50 for the Blaze at HT?

'Money in the bank.

[Alex_Traitor]

Wish I did :(

[Cussy]

Now, one of the refs made a point about warning the entire Tigers team for a delay of game after Devendorf grabbed the ball from a score, but then Wortho does the same thing and the ref said jack shit.

[Jive Turkey]

Now, one of the refs made a point about warning the entire Tigers team for a delay of game after Devendorf grabbed the ball from a score, but then Wortho does the same thing and the ref said jack shit.

a home team that's down by a thousand points will tend to get away with a little more

[Cussy]

a home team that's down by a thousand points will tend to get away with a little more

It's not so much a 50/50 call that favored the home team. It was total grand standing from the official and he must have got his jollies from doing it just once.

[Jive Turkey]

Blaze's token revival snuffed out

[Cussy]

a home team that's down by a thousand points will tend to get away with a little more

You mean like Burstons last foul? ;-)

[Cussy]

How could all three refs miss such a blatant and dangerous shove???

[Jive Turkey]

This is real seat of the pants stuff from the Blaze, win or lose here they're a country mile away from the better teams in this league atm

[Jive Turkey]

game over

[Cussy]

Harvey has only had 9 shots in the match. Gibbo and Wortho have taken 15 each. Who the frig do they think they are?

[Cussy]

Wortho is a knob.

[Dunkin' Dan]

Tigers got it, but both teams were losers in that one.

[Cussy]

I've never cheered for the Tigers but I'm glad they got up.

[Lethal Vertical]

Tigers finally get up, the monkey's now off the back.

It's a very even competition, so that 0-6 start is just nasty, but now that they're on the board the confidence will get a well earned boost.

The Blaze are kind of like the opposite of what the Tigers used to be- not a single post player in the team. There's some real structural issues there- too much one on one play. The sheer bulk of talent on their roster will ensure they get some wins, but based on the style they were playing it's not going to win them playoff games.

[Alex_Traitor]

Harvey has only had 9 shots in the match. Gibbo and Wortho have taken 15 each. Who the frig do they think they are?

Harvey was taking threes with his feet pointing to the half way line. I think its a bit of a simple analysis to look purely at the stats sheet.

In my opinion Harvey has got old shooters syndrome. Sit at the 3 point line and jack up threes coz he can't do anything else anymore.

[paul]

Some real talent on court, but I thought the best players tonight were Tom Greer, Matt Burston, Daryl Coletto, Tom Garlepp and Adam Gibson. Not the five you would expect.

If Gold Coast play 40 minutes with defensive intensity, and run plays on every offence like they did at stages in the second half they will be a good team. As it is they are a long way from that.

Tigers looked as bad against the press as they were against the Wildcats first time around.

[curious]

Wow, what a game.
I saw a lot of it in bits and pieces, but far from all of it.
What can you say.
Tigers were 20 point uP, and nearly lost it.
Blaze, terrible, then good.
Williams top scored with 19 pts, 7 rbs and 10 t/o's!!!!
I am sure the team and Al will be happy with the W, but let's hope they don't think that they are that good.
Blaze (and Adelaide) are arguably worse.

[bev]

Harvey was taking threes with his feet pointing to the half way line. I think its a bit of a simple analysis to look purely at the stats sheet.

In my opinion Harvey has got old shooters syndrome. Sit at the 3 point line and jack up threes coz he can't do anything else anymore.

Dumb comment.
Gibbo (padding his stats for Europe offers) not keen to give up the ball to anyone except his Dragon team mate, Wortho, who must be wondering why he picked the GC Blaze. Joey sux as a coach and has 2 assistants who do zippo. Maybe he likes it that way?
Great to see Garlepp using every opportunity.

[Cussy]

Gibbo (padding his stats for Europe offers) not keen to give up the ball to anyone except his Dragon team mate, Wortho

Spot on. I wonder how long before Harvey fires up at the both of them, if he hasn't already. They're playing their own game out there, and it looks as if Goulding is joining in.

[Statman72]

Couldn't agree more, very little passing and apart from Harvey running a baseline cut off three screen there's very little movement off the ball as well. It's fantastic that they then ignore Harvey off that cut almost every time.

Exactly, this game was set up for Harvs to have a big one but he was ignored so often. He is a catch and shoot player, run him off a couple of screens, hit him with the pass and he is money. Tonight however he was regularly given the ball outside and left to try and create his own shot from an on-ball screen or by driving ino the paint against Nevill and co, its just not going to happen and just results in easy boards and transition baskets for the opposition

The Blaze really need to do a shitload of re-thinking at the moment as their pattern of play at the moment sucks.

[jake31]

They've still got Gibson, Harvey, Goulding, Wortho, two imports, and Hoare, but they can only manage 22 points first half against the worst team in the league. Injuries aside, they're all playing for themselves right now.

Coaching is unbelievably non existant.
Pity the point guard isn't a little more of a leading PG and less of a SG. They've got a couple of them.

[Mr bEn]

Dumb comment.
Gibbo (padding his stats for Europe offers) not keen to give up the ball to anyone except his Dragon team mate, Wortho, who must be wondering why he picked the GC Blaze. Joey sux as a coach and has 2 assistants who do zippo. Maybe he likes it that way?
Great to see Garlepp using every opportunity.

The only 'dumb' comment is yours.

The defense was hanging off Gibbo, so he ended up taking a bunch of shots. Doesn't take Einstein to work that one out. I don't think anyone on the Blaze would care too much either, considering he chipped in with 11 boards and 7 dimes (both team highs). He can 'pad' stats all he wants if he's going to bring that each game.

Wortho taking a bunch of shots shouldn't have to be justified either, he'd take just as many on any other team and deservedly so.

Ugh.

[Mr bEn]

Blaze lost it tonight with very poor shot selection in the first half. Clark launching a pair of long twos on consecutive possessions was a great example, and there were a number of times the boys drove at the bucket and put up a botched layup that shoud never have went up. They did great to tie it up after being down 20, but they shouldn't have been down that much to begin with.

For the Tigers:

Homicide - Can't recall having witnessed such a heckyl/jekyll performance in recent times. Made some good layups and mid-rangers, but had some absolute howlers of turnovers, especially in the backcourt. It was awful watching it live, can't imagine what it looked like on tv. He should've been trusted only with the ball in front court sets, he went to water on defensive pressure. That said I think he'll go well with the Tigers once he settles in and finds an equilibirum between scoring and distributing to the bigs.

Corletto - Great calming influence on the team. Find it hard to believe the Tigers screwed him so much in the off-season before finally deciding he was good enough to re-sign.

Greer - The team's x-factor tonight. Countles key shots and rebounds. Obviously won the game as well.

Nevill - Difficult to believe someone so talk and strong struggled against such a 'small' team.

Blaze:

Hudson - I liked his nose for finding buckets at the rim. Good quicks. My old man (who knows little about the intracacies of hoops) said he'd be alright if he could shoot the three, does he have it in him?

Gibbo - Great captain's knock, not ure why there's some hate.

Garlepp - Johnny-on-the-spot for a number of plays, but realistically would be playing very limited minutes at best if the Blaze were injury free.

Clark - what a shitful game! Best contribution to the game was the dunks he was throwing down in warm-ups. Also, he looks like a shorter version of Tim Duncan.

Wortho - Helped guide the team on the run to close the gap, bu was one of the worst offenders for poor shot choices in the first half.

Harvey - Never got anything going and the triple to tie the game was bad at best. One of those nights for him I guess.

Hoare - Ony played half a game, I really though the Blaze could have used him more against the bigger Tigers.

Kudos to the Blaze for possibly taking my comments on board and running the stats longer on the big screen, very happy with that (when it was correct).

[Dunkin' Dan]

Homicide - Can't recall having witnessed such a heckyl/jekyll performance in recent times.
Because he is black, a smartarse, and alternates his accent between New York and posh English?

[Alex_Traitor]

Dumb comment.
Gibbo (padding his stats for Europe offers) not keen to give up the ball to anyone except his Dragon team mate, Wortho, who must be wondering why he picked the GC Blaze. Joey sux as a coach and has 2 assistants who do zippo. Maybe he likes it that way?
Great to see Garlepp using every opportunity.

How is that a dumb comment?

[paul]

I thought Gibson was excellent. Didnt settle for the jumpshot, continually getting into the lane - he clearly was the best point guard on the floor.

Wortho is as bad for the Blaze as he was for the Tigers. I think he needs to remember that he is a good player and not a star, and play that way. The funny thing is, when he plays his role he is very close to a star, but when he tries to be a scorer he is a negative for his team more often than not.

Couldnt agree more that the Blaze should be running Harvey off screens at some point in most sets. He doesnt need to get the ball each time, but when he curls off a screen to 18 feet, if the defence doesnt shift to cover him he is money. He is also good at catching the ball on the move and going to the hole.

[SB.1]

How is that a dumb comment?

Bev is James Harvey's mum. Say anything bad about James and incur the wrath.

[scottgcau2]

Wortho is as bad for the Blaze as he was for the Tigers. I think he needs to remember that he is a good player and not a star, and play that way. The funny thing is, when he plays his role he is very close to a star, but when he tries to be a scorer he is a negative for his team more often than not.

Was going to post almost exactly that. He needs to take what the defense gives him rather than try to force it all the time. He gets to the line pretty well but unfortunately this isn't helping him with his shot selection as he seems to think he can just throw up anything in the key and get the whistle.

And he needs somebody to point out that he has a left arm as well as the right one. With some training he may even be able to use it to do a lay up or small hook shot when he's got the defense on his right shoulder. It's a crazy concept but it just might work.

[curious]

I wonder what spin LV will put on Williams' asst / to ratio this time.
2 asst to 10 t/o. 18 t/o in two games ;)

[Jive Turkey]

The Blaze group are looking and playing like 10 or so individuals at the moment, as opposed to a team. Clearly the injuries and import swaps ect have led to a lack of cohesion and its showing big time.

If they are going to run with the group they have now then I reckon "run" should be the operative word - spread the floor, fill the lanes and dial up the tempo a few notches. The Blaze are going to struggle in a half court grind because they don't have the personel (ie the bigs) at the moment to duke it out that way.

Last night they looked better in the second half when they were forced to really push it because they were chasing the game. IMO they need to run and gun at every opportunity because to me that group they have looks more suited to winning the 95-85 type games than 75-70 ones.

Now whether an NBL team has the fitness levels required to play like this is another question. There are a couple of NBA teams that adopt this sort of style but obviously they're a fair bit abvanced on NBL guys in terms of their conditioning levels to enable them to pull that sort of fast tempo style off.

[joycefan]

We need to find guys who will stay at blaze long term to create a dynasty

Hudson- Provides a bit of variety and takes a load off gibson but not a long term blaze player.

Gibson- I like this guy, great pg but would like to see him pass more, rack up assists with less shots himself as his fg% aint the best. Hope he stays and doesnt head to europe.

Garlepp - I like him, has long term blaze potential as a key bench man, good fg %, good defensive hussle and possibly top 3 in league for boards per minute.

Clark - Nice addition, will provide a tough matchup for opposition, just has to adapt. but again I doubt he will be here past this season.

Wortho - Thing i like most about this guy is his ability to get to the line, puts foul pressure on opposition, easy going (good for team chemistry) and world class player (only left euroleague team for family reasons). Id try get him to sign on long term with perhaps a euro out clause.

Harvey - Should finish career at blaze and have his 33 retired. Entering 3rd of 3 year deal. should be able to sign him up again on a bit less cash freeing up cap space.

Hoare - has a 2 year deal so may well retire here, good guy off the bench again.

Goulding- Coming off contract season end, he has a british passport so id try sign him up now while his form is down a bit, maybe 2 year deal as i doubt he would sign longer.

Petrie- Give him performanced based contract. extra motivation to get himself right and become a fringe boomer. i hope he becomes blaze for life.


I would look at grabbing a swingman type import for 2011/12 as well as a helliwell 7 foot type. also try lure demos back as hes developed into an ok pg. Otherwise this year i cant see us doing much, give it till xmas, if we keep losing prepare for next season, if we are winning then great.

[Lethal Vertical]

I wonder what spin LV will put on Williams' asst / to ratio this time.
2 asst to 10 t/o. 18 t/o in two games ;)

I have some spin for ya... I was thinking about this last night- how is it that Williams numbers are so horrific, yet simultaneously the Tigers offense looks just as good, probably better than before?

There's a surprisingly simply answer- he's the type of player we need. This roster needs someone who makes things happen. Yes, he has turned it over A LOT and missed a heap of shots but he's also got other guys involved more, and drawn a heap of fouls. In the context of who the rest of the players on the team are, we simply need a guy at the point who does something, rather than the efficient type of guy who has reasonable stats but doesn't have the ability to get others involved (Campbell).

[Cussy]

I think a few of his turnovers have been a result of fatigue. He has fallen over a couple of times in the last few games, in the back court after some extended pressure. Give him time to get in to some shape and he will cut those turnovers down.

[Jive Turkey]

I think a few of his turnovers have been a result of fatigue. He has fallen over a couple of times in the last few games, in the back court after some extended pressure. Give him time to get in to some shape and he will cut those turnovers down.

I was quite surprised he was even good to go yesterday ... expected him to find it very difficult to back up from what was his first game in a long time on friday. That "48 hours after" is usually prime time for soreness when you're out of condition.

[DICKO]

I have some spin for ya... I was thinking about this last night- how is it that Williams numbers are so horrific, yet simultaneously the Tigers offense looks just as good, probably better than before?

There's a surprisingly simply answer- he's the type of player we need. This roster needs someone who makes things happen. Yes, he has turned it over A LOT and missed a heap of shots but he's also got other guys involved more, and drawn a heap of fouls. In the context of who the rest of the players on the team are, we simply need a guy at the point who does something, rather than the efficient type of guy who has reasonable stats but doesn't have the ability to get others involved (Campbell).

That's funny, because in the Homicide thread, you agreed with me that he was a bad fit for the Tigers.

Agreed. Having 3 bigs won't be a smart move with a point guard who thrives on driving and scoring inside.

What a difference 1 win makes.

They were lucky, and I think it's more to do with Greer and Walker being back and fit, than it is to do with the Homicide for Campbell swap.

[fan since the old snakepit]

Wortho - Thing i like most about this guy is his ability to get to the line, puts foul pressure on opposition, easy going (good for team chemistry) and world class player (only left euroleague team for family reasons). Id try get him to sign on long term with perhaps a euro out clause.

Harvey - Should finish career at blaze and have his 33 retired. Entering 3rd of 3 year deal. should be able to sign him up again on a bit less cash freeing up cap space.



Those two statements just eroded what little credibility you had.
Here is my description of Wortho. Decent player who shoots a lot. Played poorly in a pretty weak German league. World class, not close.

Harvey. Retire a guys number who has played at 3 clubs and only ended his career at the Blaze because he got a fat contract. Maybe if he played till he was 40 at the Blaze.

[joycefan]

Those two statements just eroded what little credibility you had.
Here is my description of Wortho. Decent player who shoots a lot. Played poorly in a pretty weak German league. World class, not close.

Harvey. Retire a guys number who has played at 3 clubs and only ended his career at the Blaze because he got a fat contract. Maybe if he played till he was 40 at the Blaze.

His team won the german title where he was a key guy and qualified for euroleague. Boomers starting 5 he is most of the time also, are you>

[fan since the old snakepit]

Dont know why I bother, but a bit of a slow day so here we go.

Key player I think not.
Brose Baskets Bamberg G 21 Mins 15.4 PPG 6.6 FGP41.7% 3PtP 32.0% FTP 71.4% RB 2.8 Ass 0.4
German league probably not as strong as NBL.

Also averaged about 15 mins at the W/Champs and from memory never started a game there.

[SB.1]

I think a few of his turnovers have been a result of fatigue. He has fallen over a couple of times in the last few games, in the back court after some extended pressure. Give him time to get in to some shape and he will cut those turnovers down.

Either that or he could stop throwing one handed hailmarys 3/4s the length of the court diagonally. Or stop picking up his dribble in the back court before he has decided where the pass is going.

[Dunkin' Dan]

From what I saw a lot of his turnovers were from high risk - high reward type passes. The result was a lot of turnovers, but also a lot of easy baskets for the big guys. Contrast that to Campbell, who was clearly a better shooter but seemed completely unable to create anything for the big guys that the Tigers are stuck with. He wasn't a bad player IMO, but his attributes just did not fit with that team, so Melbourne did the logical thing and made the change.

Given that Williams only just stepped off the plane I certainly wouldn't be too disappointed in what he has done so far if I was a Tigers fan. Give Homicide a couple of weeks to get some familiarity happening, stop sitting productive players down to give Helliwell some minutes, and I think things are looking up for them.

[joycefan]

Dont know why I bother, but a bit of a slow day so here we go.

Key player I think not.
Brose Baskets Bamberg G 21 Mins 15.4 PPG 6.6 FGP41.7% 3PtP 32.0% FTP 71.4% RB 2.8 Ass 0.4
German league probably not as strong as NBL.

Also averaged about 15 mins at the W/Champs and from memory never started a game there.

throw in a brose baskets mvp trophy.

[SB.1]

From what I saw a lot of his turnovers were from high risk - high reward type passes. The result was a lot of turnovers (10), but also a lot of easy baskets for the big guys (2).

Edited for clarity :)

Contrast that to Campbell, who was clearly a better shooter but seemed completely unable to create anything for the big guys that the Tigers are stuck with. He wasn't a bad player IMO, but his attributes just did not fit with that team, so Melbourne did the logical thing and made the change.

Given that Williams only just stepped off the plane I certainly wouldn't be too disappointed in what he has done so far if I was a Tigers fan. Give Homicide a couple of weeks to get some familiarity happening, stop sitting productive players down to give Helliwell some minutes, and I think things are looking up for them.

I have no doubt that Homicide will turn out to be a great move for the Tigers, but at times yesterday he looked disinterested - sort of "I'm going to do my thing, and if my team mates aren't in the right spot then that's their problem."

[Lethal Vertical]

That's funny, because in the Homicide thread, you agreed with me that he was a bad fit for the Tigers.



The context around that quote is slightly ambiguous (so that's my fault and not yours) because I said "I agree", but then said in the rest of that post that I believe the Tigers are contenders again. To clarify, I was actually referring to having 3 bigs on court at once. That's an idea that Al has finally ditched completely in the last two games.

I was actually spruiking the idea of Williams signing with the Tigers well before it was announced, probably since about the 2nd game of the season- so don't get me wrong, I am definitely in agreeance with the signing.

I'm much happier with Williams running the offense over Campbell, but the proviso is that the nail has to be put into the coffin of the idea of having 3 bigs on court at once. Prior to Williams coming on board I was happy for Al to mix it up every now and then and throw three bigs on, even though that experiment had been totally unsuccessful to date.

There's definitely been a positive correlation this season, all season long in fact, between plus and minuses on the scoreboard and having players in their best positions on the floor (or, most players at least- Burston's not gonna get away from playing some minutes at the 4, clearly). Now that Williams is going to be playing 35 minutes a game and that Greer and Walker are both healthy, I think that idea has to go the way of the dodo, never to be seen again.

[Lethal Vertical]

They were lucky, and I think it's more to do with Greer and Walker being back and fit, than it is to do with the Homicide for Campbell swap.

It's got a lot to do with it, there's no doubt that Tommy Greer was our MVP in that game.

I haven't scoured the stats in any detail, but he had some big, crucial hustle plays all game. His effort on the boards was second to none, and then the three was huge given they'd been coming back for the entire second half and had drawn level in front of their home crowd. So given how well he played, your point is well made.

However, I am expectant that over the long term Homicide's signing will be a huge thing for the team. Given his 9 to's per game, there are understandably a few knockers around the place right now, but I can see several good reasons why he'll improve over time: Starting with the obvious ones- familiarity with the offense and the rest of the team, and fitness/lack of jet lag. The Tigers system is notoriously difficult to get a handle on, always has been, and it must also be a ridiculously difficult task to step off a plane from a place with a 6 hr time differential (on 24 hour time), and play 2 games within 3.5 days of arriving. (And that would be made another 10 times more difficult if he isn't match fit. Not sure how long it's been since he played).

[curious]

I wonder what spin LV will put on Williams' asst / to ratio this time.
2 asst to 10 t/o. 18 t/o in two games ;)
LV you missed this post on the previous page. ;)
Do you seriously think that Williams will be able to accept and adapt to the shuffle?

[paul]

Joycefan, Wortho was wildly inconsistent in Germany - which I would agree FStOS is similar but slightly below the NBL - just as he has been in Australia since he left the guidance of Brian Goorjian. The difference in Germany was he was one of 5 or 6 imports on his team and if he was having a bad game the coach would sit him.

With the injury ravaged Tigers last year and Blaze this year his coaches havent had that luxury. I think Wright is getting a little tired of it though.

I know I have said it a few times but when Wortho defends, rebounds, handles when the guards are under pressure, sets picks, spots up where he can hit (18 feet) and makes hustle players he is a very good player. It is the role he plays with the Boomers off the bench and does it quite well at that level.

When he bombs contested threes, tries to be a one man show in transition, and drives blindly to the basket hoping to draw fouls he shoots in the 30%s and his team generally loses.

[Lethal Vertical]

LV you missed this post on the previous page. ;)
Do you seriously think that Williams will be able to accept and adapt to the shuffle?

Since you seem to have ignored my long(ish) answer, allow me to give you the short version:

Absolutely, yes.

[Rebecca]

At this point in time i fail to see why so many people are being negative about Williams and the decision by the Tigers to hire him.

Who cares that he had 18 turnovers in 2 games! Really, i wouldnt care if he had 30. The Tigers could quite have conceivably been 2-0 last weekend. Williams had 1 training session with the group and hasnt played since his failed Greece experiment. He was unfit and didnt really know any of their systems and yet the Tigers still gave Perth a scare.

The Tigers look so much better and dangerous now that i personally dont care if he burps it up every second play because right now no one wants to play the Tigers.

As much as i like TJ, the Tigers were just to predictable with him running the point. With Williams runing the point anything could happen literally. Already there has been more dribble penetration wihich opens the game up for everyone else. Give Williams a week or two of practice and getting to know his young teammates and anything could happen. Add to that Greer getting some more games under his belt, Walker a few more games after surgery and the Tigers could quite literally be anything.

If someone could light a fire under Devendorf's backside in transition defense and any defense for that matter and the Tigers although 1-6 could make some very large noise as the season progresses.

But i for one only see positives out of the Tigers weekend double and Williams is the major reason for that. 18 turnovers.......who gives a fat rats! The Tigers were super competative for really the first time this season against the title favourate and then let a 20+ point lead slip after dominating.

If it takes 18 turnovers over 2 games ill take that every time.

[j-mac]

^^ Indeed Rebecca. The only way is up. The team looks so much better with Homicide.

It would be silly to think though, that the Tigers can continue to win if he's going to get 8-10 turnovers per game. I expect them to come down from the next game though.
His full-court passing is abysmal. STOP THROWING IT WAY OUT OF COURT! http://www.bombertalk4.com/images/smilies/eusa_doh.gif

Also, I thought the game could have been much further out of reach of the Blaze by halftime. Stupid turnovers (Homicide's long passing, Nevill's glass hands under an open ring http://www.bombertalk4.com/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif) and missed layups probably cost us at least 10 points in the first half.

Some real talent on court, but I thought the best players tonight were Tom Greer, Matt Burston, Daryl Coletto, Tom Garlepp and Adam Gibson. Not the five you would expect.
Indeed, and it was great to see and great for the league. Except of course no one knows about the league.

[DICKO]

The Tigers could quite have conceivably been 2-0 last weekend.

I think they were FAR closer to being 0-2 after they almost snatched defeat from the jaws of victory on the Gold Coast.

They are bottom of the ladder with one win against a team that's 2-4. Maybe you should just take a big deep breath.

There are definitely reasons to be sceptical of Williams hiring (more clogging up the paint, more turnovers, no outside shot, no major improvement on the defensive end, potential ball-hogging)....all VERY valid reasons.

The weekend was, of course, a positive for the Tigers, they finally won A game. But I watched it very closely and don't really see what Homicide did that Campbell couldn't have. The difference in that game was Greer.

I admoire your loyalty, but your optimisim about the Tigers is far more out of kilter with reality, than everyone else's pessimism about Williams.

[j-mac]

But I watched it very closely and don't really see what Homicide did that Campbell couldn't have.
1. Bring the ball up the court under even minute pressure.
2. Create his own shots.
3. Create plays for others (mostly the bigs).

Also Williams' mid-range jumper isn't too bad. He knocks down enough of them that I'm happy for him to take it. I remember him making seemingly plenty in a game at the Cage a couple of years back.

[j-mac]

Also, I thought there was some dodgy charge calling at both ends. Looking at replays, most of them seemed to involve the chargee still moving across the charger.

[paul]

Your first point wasnt true on the weekend. Williams was worse than Campbell against extended pressure, and indeed racked up four more turnovers in two games than TJ did in five!

It is also unfair to compare their abilities to create shots because Campbell was forced to run the shuffle a lot, whereas the simple hitters the Tigers run last weekend were more effective and more condusive to getting in the lane and creating.

Williams' negative cancelled out his positive for mine, and he had little overall impact. Tommy Greer was the big difference for the Tigers. Of course, you would expect Corey to get better with his legs underneath him.

[j-mac]

Your first point wasnt true on the weekend. Williams was worse than Campbell against extended pressure, and indeed racked up four more turnovers in two games than TJ did in five!
Perhaps, except that there were still plenty of times where Homicide took the ball up against the pressure, Campbell couldn't even clear the baseline. Campbell's first option was always pass.

And he also had almost as many assists in one game as Campbell had in 5.
It is also unfair to compare their abilities to create shots because Campbell was forced to run the shuffle a lot, whereas the simple hitters the Tigers run last weekend were more effective and more condusive to getting in the lane and creating.
True. But There is always scope in the shuffle for good passes and drives (hello D-Mac) and Campbell did none of that.

[DICKO]

I'm with Pauls way of thinking.

Simple answer....the jury is still well and truly out.

[fan since the old snakepit]

Ditto. Only just won against a team who is struggling and a team where their three main players shot 14/44 from the field. A win yes. A sign that they are a much better team. Not yet.
Will be of interest if they stay in the free flowing style or the control freak tries to insist on the shuffle. j-mac of course there is always room in the shuffle for good passes and drives but to compare what D-Mac did to what Homicide brings is also a stretch. D-Mac is all about making plays for others first, Williams is after his own stuff and then will get it to others when his options are closed off. I think he will struggle with the shuffle because at times he just has to move the ball on and I think he likes to take the D on almost every time he gets a touch. I am not saying this is a bad thing. With the right structure he could bring a lot to the Tigers, just don't think Westover will find the right structure, going on past observations.

[DICKO]

just don't think Westover will find the right structure, going on past observations.

Wow....did you possibly just get to the root cause of the Tigers problems?

[scottgcau2]

I see Homicide as having a similar effect to what Iverson used to. Sure he's put up some questionable statistics, but he's an aggressive threat every time he has the ball and just creates offense. The other team has to pay so much attention to him that it provides some additional freedom for the rest of the Tigers.

I agree that a lot will depend on how Westover wants to use him moving forward. You don't hire a street baller if you want to run with a strict offensive structure.

[fan since the old snakepit]

I see Homicide as having a similar effect to what Iverson used to. Sure he's put up some questionable statistics, but he's an aggressive threat every time he has the ball and just creates offense. The other team has to pay so much attention to him that it provides some additional freedom for the rest of the Tigers.

Agree, but whats your point. Iverson won what, jersey sales, a good shoe contract, maybe some scoring titles, plenty of All Star appearances. Something missing here.


[/QUOTE]I agree that a lot will depend on how Westover wants to use him moving forward. You don't hire a street baller if you want to run with a strict offensive structure.[/QUOTE]

You are talking about Westover here. Does Barlow at PG, 3x7 footers running the shuffle, Hodge experiment ring a bell.

[SB.1]

I see the Homicide acquisition as a desperate move just to stop the bleed and gets some bums on seats for the rest of the season. I don't see him there next season.

[curious]

I agree that a lot will depend on how Westover wants to use him moving forward. You don't hire a street baller if you want to run with a strict offensive structure.
That was the point I raised before about Williams fitting into the shuffle.
LV seems to think it will all be OK. Time will tell on that one.
They are playing street ball now, with essentailly no structure.
They just got their first W.
It will be interesting to see if Corey, can work in the constraints of Westover's system.
There are a few players there a lot taller that Williams, who can't.

[paul]

Spot on Curious. There half court offence on the weekend was good to watch for the most part - high pick and rolls, seals inside by the big guys, away screens to free up post men, and skeleton elements of the shuffle but with the little guys doing most of the cutting and passing, leaving the big guys room inside.

A lot of people in this part of the world think you need a lot of 'motion', but that depends on the strengths of your playing group.

If Westover goes back to running more intricate parts of the shuffle it simply wont work on a consistent basis. When you think about the Tigers group from 06-08, Anstey, Thomas, Macdonald, Hoare, Corletto and Greer were all experienced running it (and Stiff and Crosswell very smart veterans who picked it up quickly), and even then there were long periods in games where they didnt get good shots.

[Rebecca]

I think they were FAR closer to being 0-2 after they almost snatched defeat from the jaws of victory on the Gold Coast.

They are bottom of the ladder with one win against a team that's 2-4. Maybe you should just take a big deep breath.

There are definitely reasons to be sceptical of Williams hiring (more clogging up the paint, more turnovers, no outside shot, no major improvement on the defensive end, potential ball-hogging)....all VERY valid reasons.

The weekend was, of course, a positive for the Tigers, they finally won A game. But I watched it very closely and don't really see what Homicide did that Campbell couldn't have. The difference in that game was Greer.

I admoire your loyalty, but your optimisim about the Tigers is far more out of kilter with reality, than everyone else's pessimism about Williams.



In the politest possible way you can jam loyalty up your butt Lance Whitnal. I dont care two hoots for the Tigers in any way shape or form. What i was commenting on as this is a forum was the hysteria around Williams turnovers and hiring. With just over a minute to go the Tigers were down by 2 to the Champions behind the play of an out of shape import who arrived the day before, jet lagged and unfit who played the full 40.

Williams is a piece of the puzzle but 2 viable 3 men in Greer and Walker make the Tigers a different proposition moving forward. Hence why basketball is a Team game. Maybe should should look past your Dragon coloured hatred of the Tigers and be neutral rather than dig dig dig because all i read is blah blah blah

[Rebecca]

Also, I thought there was some dodgy charge calling at both ends. Looking at replays, most of them seemed to involve the chargee still moving across the charger.

Just a comment jmac, if the defender establishes an initial legal guarding position he/she is entitled to move laterally or backwards to maintain position. The days of having to be stationary are long gone. Havent seen the game but just helping to dispell the common misconception that the defender cant move.

[paul]

It is important to note though, if the defender is moving sideways they must re-establish their position before the offensive player gets there. For that reason, on almost every occasion it is a block if the defender is moving sideways, and that is how it is called in most parts of the world.

[Rebecca]

Sorry Paul. If the defender has established a legal guarding position initially ( feet, first and facing) then they are allowed to move laterally. If the contact then occurs on the torso the referee has two decisions to make. Is it an offensive foul or a no-call.

If the defender slides laterally after establishing legal guarding position and contact occurs on the side of the defender or a leg for example the referee has to decide a no-call or a blocking foul.

[Rebecca]

Paul, Just so we know we are talking about the same rule!

33.4 Guarding a player who controls the ball
When guarding a player who controls (holding or dribbling) the ball, the elements of
time and distance do not apply.
The player with the ball must expect to be guarded and must be prepared to stop or
change his direction whenever an opponent takes an initial legal guarding position
in front of him, even if this is done within a fraction of a second.
The guarding (defensive) player must establish an initial legal guarding position
without causing contact before taking his position.
Once the defensive player has established an initial legal guarding position, he may
move to guard his opponent, but he may not extend his arms, shoulders, hips or legs
to prevent the dribbler from passing by him.
When judging a charge/block situation involving a player with the ball, an official
shall use the following principles:
 The defensive player must establish an initial legal guarding position by facing
the player with the ball and having both feet on the floor.
 The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or
backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position.
 When moving to maintain the initial legal guarding position, one foot or both
feet may be off the floor for an instant, as long as the movement is lateral or
backwards, but not towards the player with the ball.
 Contact must occur on the torso, in which case the defensive player would be
considered as having been at the place of contact first. Having established a legal guarding position the defensive player may turn
within his cylinder to avoid injury.
In any of the above situations, the contact shall be considered as having been
caused by the player with the ball.

[paul]

Yes, and that rule appears to have been misinterpreted a little bit in this country, as I think you have. The defensive player moving sideways must still get to their new position BEFORE the offensive player, or else they are not maintaining their legal guarding position.

Unfortunately it seems some refs seem to be thinking: "player can still be moving laterally and doesnt have to take the charge in the centre of their body", and call charges where the defender is in fact creating the contact through their sideways movement. Even if the contact is in the middle of the chest, unless the defender was there first they are the ones creating the contact and therefore it should be a block or a no call at the least.

[scottgcau2]

Agree, but whats your point. Iverson won what, jersey sales, a good shoe contract, maybe some scoring titles, plenty of All Star appearances. Something missing here.

I'm pretty sure he took Philly to the Finals and they looked like legit title contenders for a few years in a row. I think his teams were usually in the playoffs and he also was MVP one year? My memory may be a little hazy, but did he have much of a supporting cast in Philly?

The point I was trying to make is that Homicide's worth is not necessarily all in his stats. Iverson used to shoot high 30's to low 40's for field goal percentage which you'd think is not going to get you to the finals, but somehow it did.

[Rebecca]

Yes, and that rule appears to have been misinterpreted a little bit in this country, as I think you have. The defensive player moving sideways must still get to their new position BEFORE the offensive player, or else they are not maintaining their legal guarding position.

Unfortunately it seems some refs seem to be thinking: "player can still be moving laterally and doesnt have to take the charge in the centre of their body", and call charges where the defender is in fact creating the contact through their sideways movement. Even if the contact is in the middle of the chest, unless the defender was there first they are the ones creating the contact and therefore it should be a block or a no call at the least.

Paul what part of my post didnt you get?

Sorry Paul. If the defender has established a legal guarding position initially ( feet, first and facing) then they are allowed to move laterally. If the contact then occurs on the torso the referee has two decisions to make. Is it an offensive foul or a no-call.

If the defender slides laterally after establishing legal guarding position and contact occurs on the side of the defender or a leg for example the referee has to decide a no-call or a blocking foul.

The bold is exactly what i said and you reiterated it. If the defender establishes legal guarding position and then moves laterally and then is hit in the torso (meaning chest, down the numbers, however you want to word it) then its either a no call or a charge as if the defender is hit in the chest he has got there first.

[paul]

I disagree.

Firstly, the torso and the middle of the chest are not necessarilly the same thing. More importantly, even if a player gets hit in the chest it doesnt mean they have got there first. They may have arrived simultaneously or in fact moved into the path of an offensive position who has already filled that position. In both cases they havent maintained their legal guarding position.

A defender can move laterally, but the key words - and the interpretation around the globe - are maintain legal guarding position. If they dont get to a position first they dont have legal guarding position.

[Rebecca]

Copied from the rule, not my words:

Contact must occur on the torso, in which case the defensive player would be
considered as having been at the place of contact first.

The other key words are intial guarding position, move laterally NOT forward, one foot or both feet can be in the air.

If the defender moves laterally and gets hit in the chest by the offensive players shoulder for discussion purposes the likelyhood is the defender got their first.

Globally and turkey was a perfect example of this if you got hit on the torso in the chest the defence was rewarded.

[paul]

I think in Turkey if there was any doubt a block was called 9 times out of ten.

Certainly the Matt Knight charge on Williams was a clear block by WC standards. I watch a lot of games in European competitions and I think they call it that way too. Good refs do not just assume that contact to the torso means a defender was there first, as a player lunging with his body has not established or re-established legal defensive position, and that is the most important factor.

No question you can get a charge moving sideways – particularly diagonally - but I think there is a clear distinction between moving your feet and staying in front of a ballhandler and being run over, and lunging in their way and falling backwards that is sometimes missed in this country at all levels.

Jason Smith was brilliant at picking up false NBL charges, but played his defence differently internationally.

[Rebecca]

We will have to agree to disagree. But i stand by the rule and in a lot of your posts you have said exactly what i said or have said exactly what the rule states.
As long as there is legal guarding position established first is the key point. Of course you cant just jump in front of a player and get a charge. But remember time and distance isnt a consideration when a defender is guarding the ball carrier.

I also think there were a lot more charges in Turkey than you recall.

But happy to agree to disagree. Enjoy your day

[paul]

I am definitely not diametrically opposed to what you are saying, I just think that at times in Australia more weight is being put on the lateral movement part of the rule than the legal guarding position part. It is the interpretation that matters.

As for Turkey, of course a lot of charges were called, there were many very good defenders there. But I had a very good seat for a lot of games, and I have no doubt that to earn a charge you had to be in very good defensive position – 50/50 calls rarely went the defenders’ way like they often do here, to the point where on occasion what I thought were clear charges were called blocks.

I liked that they placed the onus on the defender and not the ballhandler.

[Rebecca]

Id like to think that in Australia the boys call 50/50 calls as blocks as well. The redhage one from that game comes to mind.

You would like to think that any benefit of the doubt goes to the offensive player.

[paul]

I agree, and I think overall the standard of reffing is decent in Australia. The style of game we play makes it pretty tough to officiate, teams really push the limit.

I would like to see more 50/50s called blocks; less fouls called when there is minimal body contact on a blocked shot, or when the defender elevates straight up; and less ‘hand checks’ for simply placing their hand on a ball handler. Less 'shockers' like when Williams was clearly pushed in the back would be nice too. There seems to be a couple per game.

There are always exceptions, but I like the fact that NBL refs are no longer automatically calling spin moves a travel, but assessing each one on its merits; the way they use the advantage call; their consistency on post defence (which was sadly lacking at the WCs); and the fact they have stopped, for the most part, bailing out guys who jump into a defender trying to milk a foul.

[scottgcau2]

I'm with Paul on pretty much everything here. Beaten defenders who desperately throw themselves in front (ie. if there's no contact then they're still highly likely to fall over anyway) of the the ball carrier get bailed out far too often in our leagues. I blame this for our lack of good penetrators and players with mid range game.

It's also pretty damn difficult to pull off a blocked shot because any half decent offensive player knows they only need to do a bit of acting to make a clear cut block into a borderline situation for referees.

[SB.1]

I think this rule is much too complicated for most referees, and therefore I think if there is any doubt, then it should be a block. Unfortunately in this country the benefit of the doubt seems to go to the defender, and/or the home team.

I would also like to see flopping penalised with a tech for simulation, rather than just the ref signal to the player to get up. It is happening in other sports.

[DICKO]

In the politest possible way you can jam loyalty up your butt Lance Whitnal. I dont care two hoots for the Tigers in any way shape or form. What i was commenting on as this is a forum was the hysteria around Williams turnovers and hiring. With just over a minute to go the Tigers were down by 2 to the Champions behind the play of an out of shape import who arrived the day before, jet lagged and unfit who played the full 40.

Williams is a piece of the puzzle but 2 viable 3 men in Greer and Walker make the Tigers a different proposition moving forward. Hence why basketball is a Team game. Maybe should should look past your Dragon coloured hatred of the Tigers and be neutral rather than dig dig dig because all i read is blah blah blah

Well that was uncalled for.

Sorry for assuming you were a Tigers fan. I know it's a HORRIBLE suggestion but it wasn't a deliberate shot.

My like (or dislike as the case may be) for the Tigers has nothing to do with my comments any more than you claim yours has nothing to do with your comments.

In fact, my comments were echoed by a large group of people. So I don't think I was necessarily far off the mark. I happen to disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure that's within the rules here.

It is, after all, just my opinion that you're howling down.

All the best.

[Rebecca]

SB the tech for flopping is used in Europe and South America. They give a warning to the first player who does it, the coach is warned and this is the first and final warning for the entire team. Next infraction is a technical foul.

The problem becomes inconsistency. Who says where to draw the line for flopping. There are several types of flopping. There is the obvious no brainer in Europe where there is absolutely no contact and the defender goes down. This would be easy to officiate. But then there is the occasion where there is slight contact and the defender goes down. Then there is heavier contact and the defender goes down. None of them may require a call. They may all fall under no-call.

But what you get is the first is called a warning for flopping but late in the game, with the game on the line the same no-call is not classified as flopping because the referees do not want to decide the game with a technical 5 seconds to go scores tied! Could you imagine the crowd reaction at Olympiakos if the referee called a technical foul for flopping, 5 seconds left tied game!!!! They would rip out every seat in the venue and throw it on the court etc etc

I think an easier way is just call an automatic blocking foul. You flopped!

But really all it requires is for referees to not anticipate the play. See the whole play and determine if the offensive player actually breaks the vertical plane of the defender creating an advantage. In this situation would you agree that a late correct call is better than a referee with a quick whistle who gets sucked into a flop on the defenders reaction? Well that's what my Dad used to always tell me anyway.

[paul]

I think the player being left on the ground while their opponent is upright with the ball is punishment enough. At the WCs the refs gave out plenty of warnings but few, if any techs.

The one I didnt like the other day was when (from memory, sorry if I have players mixed up) Behrendorff flopped and then Nevill tripped over his legs. That should have automaticvally been a block but I think Nevill was called for a travel. Terrible call.

[DICKO]

But really all it requires is for referees to not anticipate the play.

Welcome to fairyland :-)

Although I must admit, it is better now......in the 80's/90's it seemed like the whistle was blown before any contact was actually made.

[Rebecca]

Unfortunately Neville got for a charge on that play Paul. As i said they give warnings but very rarely call technicals late in the game when it can affect the outcome.