Offense/Defense: Who wins ?

[MAIN_MAN]

dear, dear...Expertise and I have been ozhoops mates for some time now but alas our different styles of the game have caused some hositlity. We both decided to start this thread.

Ozhoopers we bring this TO YOUR ATTENTION !!!

What is more important: Defense or Scoring.

Expertise has a great theroy: You score the most points and you win (great news genious :P) He believes that offense if thought properly, will win games over good solid D.

I argue that D is the glue for a teams success. Offense even how good you are can at times fail you. Defense is the stability that holds the team together and good D can win games.

Hey Riley and Phil Jackson said it not only me: Would you take Expertise's words over theirs ?

What do you guys reckon ?

Expertise has a great theroy: You score the most points and you win (great news genious :P) He believes that offense if thought properly, will win games over good solid D.

I didn't say that, I said that if you score more points you win, whihc you tryed to argue with me about!
But yes, that is my theroy, not saying I came up with it


I argue that D is the glue for a teams success. Offense even how good you are can at times fail you. Defense is the stability that holds the team together and good D can win games.

Okay, I never said that good D doesn't contribute to the result, all I said is it doesn't win you games, it doesn't win you a championship, scoring more points then the opposition does! Simple really!

I also said Defence can fail you, when Main_Man said:
ju yann says:
offense will fail you
ju yann says:
Defense will not

Hey Riley and Phil Jackson said it not only me: Would you take Expertise's words over theirs ?

He is talking about
Defence Wins Games

I disagree, scoring more points wins games, its that simple, don't complicate things!

[JWC]

Of course you have to outscore your oponent to win, but

If you have two equally good ( talented) scoring teams, and one has better defensive skills, the outcome is pretty predictable.

Interesting to look back at the last GF series.........It seemed to be accepted that Brisbane and Townsville were the two best scoring teams in the finals, while the Hawks and Kings were the two best defensive teams....and look which 2 teams came out on top!

[aussieBaller]

I have thought about this question for years. When I first Started coaching because I followed magic I also followed BG coaching style 'D'. But lately i've realised coaching juniors to give the best chance of a kid making it somewhere playing basketball they have to be able to shoot and shoot well. Lindsay has this theory and as far as I can see this has worked for his son.

The majority of my trainings used to be defense and fitness drills to be quick and able to play D. The last 4 months it has been shooting, shooting and more shooting and the teams I do coach are now making a hell of a lot more shots and when it counts too. Hitting foul shots to win in the last minute.

I still do believe in D but in juniors offense is the key but in seniors it shows that defense wins. Eg BG = Sydney Championship and in the ABA nationals last year NW Tassie had Shawn Redhage leading Scorer in the SEABL and in the Grand Final It All Broke down and Cairns were able to take the win with good shooting and even better D.

as long as you realize what Main_Man didn't

all I said is you have to score more than your opponents, he jsut went nuts saying about defence and about some team who averages 130ppg but only win 50%..

It doesnt Matter how much you score, as long as you score more!

Just so everyone knows, I also said :
You can't not score and win

And Main_Man was contempt to argue that aswell :lol:

[Stumps]

Couldn't this thread have been called something like "Offence or defence?", so that people don't avoid it, thinking it's some juvenile little fight?

[aussieBaller]

This should prob be in Coaches Corner.

[speakerboxxx]

I have thought about this question for years. When I first Started coaching because I followed magic I also followed BG coaching style 'D'. But lately i've realised coaching juniors to give the best chance of a kid making it somewhere playing basketball they have to be able to shoot and shoot well. Lindsay has this theory and as far as I can see this has worked for his son.

The majority of my trainings used to be defense and fitness drills to be quick and able to play D. The last 4 months it has been shooting, shooting and more shooting and the teams I do coach are now making a hell of a lot more shots and when it counts too. Hitting foul shots to win in the last minute.

I still do believe in D but in juniors offense is the key but in seniors it shows that defense wins. Eg BG = Sydney Championship and in the ABA nationals last year NW Tassie had Shawn Redhage leading Scorer in the SEABL and in the Grand Final It All Broke down and Cairns were able to take the win with good shooting and even better D.

daam right there 'aussieballer' i agree that Defence wins games. to be brief, it comes down to stopping the other team from scoring. By playing hard defense you end up with the ball anyway creating more possession for your team = more options. DONT LET THE OTHER TEAM SCORE~
and yes.. the 2004 cairns marlins was a great example of this. they did it all year. they did it in the QABL final also like the national final.
i dont think many teams in the QABL at the moment play very good D. just look at some of the rediculously high scores.

thats where your wrong, defence doesn't win you the game, tis the points you put on the board that wins, if your re-read aussieballer psot, he is telling us about offence!

Defence may mean you don't have to score as mcuh, but at the end of the day it is your shots that win/lose the game!

i dont think many teams in the QABL at the moment play very good D. just look at some of the rediculously high scores.

Ok, high scores doesn't mean bad defence

e.g last season cairns had the so called best defensive record, but when you had a look at the % of times a team scored, cairns defence didnt look so great, cairns play a much slower game, there games are around 50 possesions slower than the league average(lastseason stats)

so while they gave up say 90ppg, and other gave up 100ppg, some fo the teams who gave up more points didnt get scored on as much. Cairns offence was very productive, even though they didnt have much of the ball, they scored a good % of the time.

Basicly, every team in the QABL except Cairns run transition asmuch as possible, so when cairns slow right down, teams still score at their normal %'s i.e 45% fg but they wont take 110 shots per game they will take say 90 and this is where the points per game comes down, even though there offence was as effective, in the half court Cairns were clearly head adn shoulders above the rest of the league, and as it turned out better than the rest of the nation.

[DoubleA]

Defence wins games.

[speakerboxxx]

well then how do you stop the other team from scoring more points than you?

if you cant do that then can you win?

Yes, you can win, by scoring adn scoring and scoring!

now, im not saying defence isnt extremely important, you must play it well to be successful, im trying to get people to see how god damn important offence is!

[Coachpete]

I would think that the last three NBL seasons would have made it apparent that you need to be able to play defence AND shoot the ball well to be a champion team.

Expertise is right.....kids need to be able to shoot the ball well and should do plenty of practice at it.

They also need to be able to guard their man and stop them from scoring.

Defence doesn't win titles
Offence doesn't win titles

PLAYERS who can play at both ends combined with a decent coach who has a system that works and plenty of hard work on all aspects of the game PLUS a bit of luck......that wins titles!

a few things i stress

Dont pass the ball for the sake of passing the ball, only pass the bal to be productive
Dont pass the ball becoz you are being pressed, only pass when need be, you wil often find the easiest way to ebat the press is dribble the ball up the middle of the floor.
If your open shoot it, not shooting is the single most worst way not to execute.
if there is no help defence in place, take you player one on one
always be very aggressive when on the ball, no more than 5cms space between you and your opponent
Off the ball be ready to move!

jsut a quick post, will edit/adjsut when have more time

thoughts..

something to remember

Our game was invented around putting the ball in the basket

how can anyone say they are a true fan or love this game if they specialise in preventing what our game is based on?

[Essen]

I argue that D is the glue for a teams success. Offense even how good you are can at times fail you. Defense is the stability that holds the team together and good D can win games.


Good offense can somehow sometimes get mucked up. See players having bad days.

Good defense can somehow never get mucked up. On defense it's rare for players to have "bad" days were they just can't play and usually it's moreso them giving away fouls.

As they say, a good defense can stop a good offense, but can a good offense unlock a good defense? No. I think it is accentuated depending on the seriousness of the game. Offense might do it on a regular season, but it's the defense that wins the championship.

See the latest NBA playoffs results.

[speakerboxxx]

To Quote Expertise:::
Dont pass the ball for the sake of passing the ball, only pass the bal to be productive
Dont pass the ball becoz you are being pressed, only pass when need be, you wil often find the easiest way to ebat the press is dribble the ball up the middle of the floor.
If your open shoot it, not shooting is the single most worst way not to execute.
if there is no help defence in place, take you player one on one
always be very aggressive when on the ball, no more than 5cms space between you and your opponent
---------------------

some may say you've got a bit more still to see in this thing called basketball.
and that it may seem as though you like talking & posting to yourself?

[Lethal Vertical]

There is an old saying:

"Offense wins you regular season games, defence wins you championships".

Lethal

okay, lets look at it

Passing the ball for the sake of passing the ball does what?
Passing the ball for a purpose and being productive does what?

[SinECool]

Firstly, having a good scoring team and a good shooting team are totally different. It is definitely important to be able to shoot, you have to make the outside shot so D plays closer, thus enabling you to drive or pass easier. It doesn't matter if a team's offence is poorly thought out, if players are crowding each other or if your players can't comprehend simple plays, you will get at least one shot (be it forced or open) and if your players can shoot than it doesn't matter that they suck at offense.
Defence can also lead to transition baskets thus giving your offense a head start or advantage. Being superb at scoring does not make your defence any better because you still have to play 5 on 5 at the end of the day (the other team can hold up the ball on a 1 on 4 and just play 5 on 5 against your weak D).
So this demonstrates why good D is better than good O and why shooting well does not mean you have a good offense.

[Hvyro]

You know why the Spurs are such a good team?

They're main priority is defensive rebounding. People hitting the Offensive boards can kill you. But Defensive Rebounding makes up for many fastbreak situations.

[MAIN_MAN]

okay, lets look at it

Passing the ball for the sake of passing the ball does what?
Passing the ball for a purpose and being productive does what?

Expertise u egghead what are you on about ? We're talking about OFFENSE and DEFENSE :shock:

[Steph]

Haha, this is a mad thread. It's toooooooootally debatable i love it. You are both right though, you do realise that don't you?

Good teamwork is what wins games. If you have a good team offence then if it really is good then you will be able to break the defence down, and it would be teamwork becuase as a team you will know which one is the better person for the shots and be able to get the ball to them :wink: . Good movement and communication will do the trick too.

if you have a good team defence then yu can communicate to each other on help and recovery and who has which player so on.......As a team if you can contain the other teams offence through communcation and swift movement then you will have better chances to contain the score and make it your own game....

[meg]

The Suns just lost, after having the best record in the regular season.

There is an old saying:

"Offense wins you regular season games, defence wins you championships".

Lethal

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT SPOILER! :evil: :roll:

[Lethal Vertical]

woops.....sorry. My bad. I have edited my post.

Lethal

ok, let me clear this up,

no matter what i have said, you all should know, Defence is extremley important, and is essential for success, however shooting and other offensive fundamentals are lacking!

At the end of the day the team with the msot points wins, yet we are not training our kids to be great scorers or to help there teams score well, we are training them to stop otehrs from scoring more then are are training them to score!

[Franklin]

yet we are not training our kids to be great scorers

"we"? Is that the royal plural we?

I do do some defense training (like teaching them to use their feet, keep their hands out ect) but most of our training is on passing and shooting. In game situations, my kids just naturally "swarm" which, if they don't pick up cheap fouls is v effective. However, as most of my kids only started playing b'ball last year and had never played comp till this year, I wanted them to be able to shoot.

They haven't lost a game thjis year. Even when they haven't had their star player :)

ah the good old swarm, nothing like a bit of ball pressure!

ya, we are in coaches in australia in general

[Coachpete]

Perhaps "we" are sick of losing 100-90 and "we" think it would be nice if players could guard their man :wink:

maybe if u could shoot better, you wouldnt only score 90 :P :P

[speakerboxxx]

ok, let me clear this up,

no matter what i have said, you all should know, Defence is extremley important, and is essential for success, however shooting and other offensive fundamentals are lacking!

At the end of the day the team with the msot points wins, yet we are not training our kids to be great scorers or to help there teams score well, we are training them to stop otehrs from scoring more then are are training them to score!


i dont see on what grounds you could possibly support your above quote from.

and it may appear that you contradict yourself in some posts.

[Coachpete]

maybe if u could shoot better, you wouldnt only score 90 :P :P

I was using the royal "we" champ...............my team's 8-1....we shoot the ball quite nicely AND defend well :wink:

[Mr Book]

Well my contribution to this argument would have to be that over last 3 seasons the team I have coached has been the best defensive team in the laegue each year. Result - 3 straight NSW SBL championships.

This year - best record again and equal top after half the season with 8-1 record.

If i get to watch any team play their offense you can pull it apart defensively with smart players (oxymoron?).

Defense wins championships its that easy.

[Steph]

I still think that it is BOTH of them that need good contributions to win the games. you can't override one over the other it takes good skills both ways to win with satisfaction, You never heard of a team who wona game by sitting on the floor and letting the other team score and you never herad of a team who stayed in the other team's key to make it impossible for them to socre.

[Mr Book]

Perhaps "we" are sick of losing 100-90 and "we" think it would be nice if players could guard their man :wink:

My players will run sprints for an hour if they let the other team score 100 points. We aim to hold teams to about 12 points per quarter. Our best this season is 3, the worst is about 20.

[Wallitron]

My team has scored 100 points once, and held a team scoreless for an entire quarter. If our win loss record was better, that would be something to be proud of. :)

Personally I don't think junior teams train enough to become well rounded offensive players. The offensive game requires more time and skill to master than defense. This is also why it's more likely fail under extreme pressure.

I guess you show the players what to practice, and the great players will spend hours working at it. One of the great things about basketball is you can work on many of the offensive skills by yourself.

I think a defensive team in harmony is tougher than an offensive team in harmony. On the other hand, an extremely talented individual offensive player can make a greater impact in a game than a talented defensive individual.

[Cee_em_bee]

A good offence is the start of a good defence, If you control you possesions, limit turnover and get 2nd chance points, You're not letting the other team get easy points in transition, But a good defence is the key to be being a great team. Say if your team can't hit a shot to save their life but they are active, they can force turnovers and get easy transition points.

ok, let me clear this up,

no matter what i have said, you all should know, Defence is extremley important, and is essential for success, however shooting and other offensive fundamentals are lacking!

At the end of the day the team with the msot points wins, yet we are not training our kids to be great scorers or to help there teams score well, we are training them to stop otehrs from scoring more then are are training them to score!


i dont see on what grounds you could possibly support your above quote from.

and it may appear that you contradict yourself in some posts.

yes, im not surprised, ti all depends how much you read ito my posts.. dont read much into them!!

btw, i wil endeavor to clear anything up for you, if i have contracdicted myself..

[SinECool]

On the other hand, an extremely talented individual offensive player can make a greater impact in a game than a talented defensive individual.

Yes, the only flaw in my argument. You can be the best defenders ever but if you are on a guy who has no 'personal space issues' and can jack it up and score from anywhere even when you're all over them then it becomes a moot point.
And any good coach knows how to exploit a poor defender on a team playing man to man so you'd also know that sometimes the defensive prowess of an individual is wasted on who they are guarding etc.

[speakerboxxx]

ok, let me clear this up,

no matter what i have said, you all should know, Defence is extremley important, and is essential for success, however shooting and other offensive fundamentals are lacking!

At the end of the day the team with the msot points wins, yet we are not training our kids to be great scorers or to help there teams score well, we are training them to stop otehrs from scoring more then are are training them to score!


i dont see on what grounds you could possibly support your above quote from.

and it may appear that you contradict yourself in some posts.

yes, im not surprised, ti all depends how much you read ito my posts.. dont read much into them!!

btw, i wil endeavor to clear anything up for you, if i have contracdicted myself..

it just doesnt seem like your winning this debate about your point are you youngin.

its not about winning a debate, its about making peple think, and having a good discussion

People i tihnk are realizing, yeah we can play D, but fuck we cant shoot!

Perfect example.. we played a team on weekend in aba (men) we are better ball handlers, better defenders, better passers, faster too! They are very good shooters. Guess who won! Good shooters make shots!

[Coachpete]

its not about winning a debate, its about making peple think, and having a good discussion

People i tihnk are realizing, yeah we can play D, but (Extremely Naughty Word!) we cant shoot!

Perfect example.. we played a team on weekend in aba (men) we are better ball handlers, better defenders, better passers, faster too! They are very good shooters. Guess who won! Good shooters make shots!

Maybe you only think you're better defenders :wink:

ask Ed Palubinskas how important shooting is, and how bad in general people shoot!

[speakerboxxx]

its not about winning a debate, its about making peple think, and having a good discussion

People i tihnk are realizing, yeah we can play D, but (Extremely Naughty Word!) we cant shoot!

Perfect example.. we played a team on weekend in aba (men) we are better ball handlers, better defenders, better passers, faster too! They are very good shooters. Guess who won! Good shooters make shots!

are you trying to say that every shot the other team took was under the best, hardest pressure defense you could possibly put on their players; and yet they still hit?

i doubt it. its southern cross. pfft..

[Team DMD Basketball]

dear, dear...Expertise and I have been ozhoops mates for some time now but alas our different styles of the game have caused some hositlity. We both decided to start this thread.

Ozhoopers we bring this TO YOUR ATTENTION !!!

What is more important: Defense or Scoring.

Expertise has a great theroy: You score the most points and you win (great news genious :P) He believes that offense if thought properly, will win games over good solid D.

I argue that D is the glue for a teams success. Offense even how good you are can at times fail you. Defense is the stability that holds the team together and good D can win games.

Hey Riley and Phil Jackson said it not only me: Would you take Expertise's words over theirs ?

What do you guys reckon ?

Full 180, I am defence all the way. And for those new, I am Expertise.