Hoare a Croc

[League]

Grantley Bernard wrote in the heraldsun today that young Mr Sneaky Hoare has signed with the crocs.

[Lethal Vertical]

Sweet! Good luck to him. Hope he does well.

I'll be cheering him when he comes to The Cage. I suspect most other Tigers fans will too.

[curious]

Wouldn't be surprised.
Hoare is a Spectre and with Shortie there it's a logical and damm good pickup.

[shike]

Going on these stats would have been better off keeping Egan

Playe GP PTS FGA FGM FG % 3PA 3PM 3P % FTA FTM FT %

Hoare 30 272 200 109 .545 57 26 .456 43 28 .651

Egan 30 264 195 107 .549 38 17 .447 47 33 .702

[Cussy]

Oh dear....

[franky123]

Well talk about pulling out the big stats there Shike, the analytical world is your oyster. So, if I may summarise, the Crocs are worse off because - Egan shot the ball at 0.04% better (despite being a predominatly close to the basket shooter) and free throws at 5% better (from a whopping 1.5 FT per game). Truly amazing stats, albeit ignorant to rebounds, assists, steals or even mins played.

Regardless of these little gems Shike has produced, I think Hoare is a good fit at Townsville and hopefully will have the opportunity to contribute more offensively than the last few seasons at the Tigers. Egan only took a shot when left wiiiiiide open or on offensive rebounds, so if that latitude is given to Hoare in preference for the Crocs array of outside shooters then he will be a 10ppg player for sure on this roster. Remember that Hoare also took over from Egan at the Tigers (i think they were together for a season) and that turned out pretty well for all concerned for him so we'll wait and see.

Got to sign Homicide first tho.

[shike]

Oh dear....

Oh dear what can the matter be poor old "customer" got his knickers in a knot again & again & again!!!!

[Clips]

Going on these stats would have been better off keeping Egan

Playe GP PTS FGA FGM FG % 3PA 3PM 3P % FTA FTM FT %

Hoare 30 272 200 109 .545 57 26 .456 43 28 .651

Egan 30 264 195 107 .549 38 17 .447 47 33 .702
All well and good for scoring, how do those other stats look? Without having a minutes stat available, Hoare averages more boards, assists, blocks, steals and less fouls.

[Cussy]

What can I say, your stupidity frustrates me.

[shike]

Well talk about pulling out the big stats there Shike, the analytical world is your oyster. So, if I may summarise, the Crocs are worse off because - Egan shot the ball at 0.04% better (despite being a predominatly close to the basket shooter) and free throws at 5% better (from a whopping 1.5 FT per game). Truly amazing stats, albeit ignorant to rebounds, assists, steals or even mins played.

Regardless of these little gems Shike has produced, I think Hoare is a good fit at Townsville and hopefully will have the opportunity to contribute more offensively than the last few seasons at the Tigers. Egan only took a shot when left wiiiiiide open or on offensive rebounds, so if that latitude is given to Hoare in preference for the Crocs array of outside shooters then he will be a 10ppg player for sure on this roster. Remember that Hoare also took over from Egan at the Tigers (i think they were together for a season) and that turned out pretty well for all concerned for him so we'll wait and see.

Got to sign Homicide first tho.

Wasn't trying to pull out the big stats.

I was pointing out there's not much difference in the two players going by those stats so why change?????

Crocs CEO said they were going after younger players isn't Hoare a year older than Egan?

[scottgcau2]

Stats for both players per 40 mins from last year:
Player Season Team Played Home Away Started Time FG % 3P % FT % OR DR TR BL ST AS TO FL Points EFF EFG% TS% OR% DR% TR%
Stephen Hoare NBL 2008-2009 Melbourne Tigers 30 15 15 6 40:00 5.94/10.9 54.5 1.42/3.11 45.6 1.53/2.34 65.1 2.73 5.4 8.12 0.65 0.55 3.44 1.96 3.44 14.83 19.85 61 62.1 7.8 15.5 11.7
Daniel Egan NBL 2008-2009 Townsville Crocodiles 30 15 15 6 40:00 7.49/13.66 54.9 1.19/2.66 44.7 2.31/3.29 70.2 3.01 4.41 7.42 0.21 0.42 1.54 1.26 4.9 18.49 19.68 59.2 61.2 8.4 13.5 10.8

Actual minutes played were:
Egan - 19:02
Hoare - 24:27

Basically what I read into these stats is that Hoare is more of a team oriented player (higer assists and lower shot attempts) than Egan which could be part of the reason why Egan didn't see more time last season despite being right up there with Homicide and Ellis as the teams most efficient players. Possibly defense could have also been a problem (foul rate).

[shike]

What can I say, your stupidity frustrates me.

So my time on here is not wasted then.

[jesuc jexus]

a hoare vs egan debate 10 (or so) years after the first one!

[2sc945]

LOL.


Fact is that both of them are role players.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Going on these stats would have been better off keeping Egan

Playe GP PTS FGA FGM FG % 3PA 3PM 3P % FTA FTM FT %

Hoare 30 272 200 109 .545 57 26 .456 43 28 .651

Egan 30 264 195 107 .549 38 17 .447 47 33 .702

HIGH-LARIOUS!

Last I checked Russell Hinder wasn't Chris Anstey and Brad Williamson wasn't Dave Thomas...

[shike]

HIGH-LARIOUS!

Last I checked Russell Hinder wasn't Chris Anstey and Brad Williamson wasn't Dave Thomas...



Gee thanks! for pointing that out, I thought they were one of the same.


Have no idea what this has to do with this thread, maybe just maybe you can enlighten us all.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Wouldn't you think, hear me out here, that on a team as stacked as the Tigers have been, perhaps Steven Hoare might have a wee bit harder time putting up numbers next to guys like Chris Anstey, Sam MacKinnon, Dave Thomas, Rod Grizzard, Dave Thomas, David Barlow, Ebi Ere et al than Daniel Egan might trying to produce numbers next to Russell Hinder, Rosell Ellis, Corey Williams, John Rillie, Brad Williamson, Michael Cedar... hmm... ya reckon?

[Wallitron]

And Dave Thomas.

[Stumps]

Wasn't trying to pull out the big stats.

I was pointing out there's not much difference in the two players going by those stats so why change?????
But why would you just go by those stats?

[shike]

But why would you just go by those stats?

Well what stats would you like me to go by????

[Stumps]

Well what stats would you like me to go by????
All of them, rather than a cherry-picked sample, plus a look at the roles the two respective players played, the teammates around them and how they would have affected their performance, and all the intangibles that both players bring to the table that don't show up in the stats. That's usually a good start when you want to compare two players.

[Da Houndawg #55]

All of them, rather than a cherry-picked sample, plus a look at the roles the two respective players played, the teammates around them and how they would have affected their performance, and all the intangibles that both players bring to the table that don't show up in the stats. That's usually a good start when you want to compare two players.
Don't be ridiculous...

[shike]

All of them, rather than a cherry-picked sample, .

It was last years stats, hardly a cherry picked sample.

[Alex_Traitor]

And with a simple typo he becomes a 'Crac Hoare' looooooooooool

[ygoslo7]

Good signing (all Tigers fans will acknowledge this) and I'm just really glad he found a team. Good luck to him and I hope they take out the runner up trophy. If there is one.

[KEVY47]

I have a feeling Homicide signed today too...

--- i mean Rolan :P

[curious]

Pleased to hear Sneaky may get a gig.
Great all round guy, on and off the court.
A huge asset for the Crocs if it is true.
Shame to see Seamus and the Tigers not respect the person.
Like so many others before him, chewed up and spat out for selfish reasons.
Good luck to Sneaky where ever he may end uP.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Pleased to hear Sneaky may get a gig.
Great all round guy, on and off the court.
A huge asset for the Crocs if it is true.
Shame to see Seamus and the Tigers not respect the person.
Like so many others before him, chewed up and spat out for selfish reasons.
Good luck to Sneaky where ever he may end uP.
If anything it likely represents his character positively that he's not currently seen as Tigers material... like Anstey, Wortho, Sam Merc and the like...

[curious]

The trouble I would imagine is that in all reality, all of the afore mentioned people are there for one reason $$$'s.
The value that Chris has brought to the club is immeasurable. That comes at a price of course. That's why they both feed off each other.
If Seamus decided that Anstey had out lived his usefullness he would be gone tomorrow in a flash. Rest assured the reverse will apply. Wortho has just shown how loyal he isn't.
One day Anstey et. al. will move on. It's just a case of who gets in first.
Seamus has successfully got rid of the Dragons and will what ever he wants to secure he makes a profit every season. That's just business ;)
However that comes at a personal price. In this case Sneaky.

[mattic]

Who is Sneaky?

[gangsta boo]

Sneaky Hoare - a nickname

[ygoslo7]

While it is galling for Tigers fans myself who grew up with Gaze, Copeland, Gordon etc who were career Tigers to see a guy like Sneaky cut loose, I think you'd find that the Tigers would still have more long-term players than most teams. The fact is that these days players move around rapidly - I don't think the Stephen Hoare situation is necessarily a reflection on club or player.

[curious]

Might have been a good idea to tell Hoare that his services were no longer required in person. Rather than him finding out 2nd hand.
Pathetic.

[djrod]

I have a feeling Homicide signed today too...

--- i mean Rolan :P

even the local paper had a story on how they expected the crocs to be announcing the signing of corey williams today :)

[cantremeber]

Might have been a good idea to tell Hoare that his services were no longer required in person. Rather than him finding out 2nd hand.
Pathetic.

That....I hadnt heard....phhhhtttt

You sure? Seems even more cold, impersonal and cavalaier than the Crocs cold-nosed pragmatism

[Da Houndawg #55]

Tell him via proxy through twitter, Shaq-style...

[Stumps]

While it is galling for Tigers fans myself who grew up with Gaze, Copeland, Gordon etc who were career Tigers to see a guy like Sneaky cut loose, I think you'd find that the Tigers would still have more long-term players than most teams. The fact is that these days players move around rapidly - I don't think the Stephen Hoare situation is necessarily a reflection on club or player.
You don't think ANYTHING is a reflection on the Tigers.

[Da Houndawg #55]

You don't think ANYTHING is a reflection on the Tigers.
Their soul-less owner no longer casts a reflection...

[Lethal Vertical]

Might have been a good idea to tell Hoare that his services were no longer required in person. Rather than him finding out 2nd hand.
Pathetic.


I agree.

However, in terms of the actual decision (as opposed to how it was communicated) I can see where the Tigers were coming from. Yeah, as I said previously I'd probably rather have Sneaky than Mackinnon, but it's not a no brainer decision by any stretch.

[Cram]

Nope, I dont like the decision or the way it was handled. Hoare was the one guy who got the Tigers easy baskets, did all the dirty work, and whatever else he was asked to do, while getting shafted for court time. No complaints. The guy is all class and deserved to retire as a Tiger.

The fact that Wortho is gonna come in and wear his number is just an insult.

[Da Houndawg #55]

I agree.

However, in terms of the actual decision (as opposed to how it was communicated) I can see where the Tigers were coming from. Yeah, as I said previously I'd probably rather have Sneaky than Mackinnon, but it's not a no brainer decision by any stretch.
The fact that they're essentially sacrificing Steven Hoare to keep MacKinnon suggests to me that MacKinnon doesn't warrant any points reduction whatsoever... or at least the Tigers don't honestly believe it themselves...

[Lethal Vertical]

Even with his points reduced to 8, Mackinnon is still rated higher than (or equal to?) Hoare, so it doesn't mean any such thing.

[Cussy]

Nope, I dont like the decision or the way it was handled. Hoare was the one guy who got the Tigers easy baskets, did all the dirty work, and whatever else he was asked to do, while getting shafted for court time. No complaints. The guy is all class and deserved to retire as a Tiger.

The fact that Wortho is gonna come in and wear his number is just an insult.

You say that as if Wortho, the club, or any fan of the Tigers should actually care about stuff like that.

[Lethal Vertical]

Ultimately it's gotta be a basketball decision. In terms of whether you keep the guy on the roster, it has to be decided on the basis of what's gonna help the team win. I prefer Hoare because I'm just too skeptical about Mackinnon's ability to stay on the floor, and I think Hoare's got some important things going for him- namely, a history of knowing the offense back to front, and of being a great role player as opposed to one of the go to guys. And a history, of course, of staying on the court for whole seasons!

But yeah, I do agree that the poor communication leaves a slightly poor aftertaste in my mouth as a long term fan of the club. Knowing that a long term club stalwart, and well loved guy, found out such a thing from the media, makes me inclined to say that it was pretty classless by Ol Seamus.

[Lethal Vertical]

And for the record, allow me to highlight the contents of the above post yet again. It seems I'm constantly critiqued for being a Tigers fanboy, hopelessly incapable of any form of objectivity, and who'll back every word that comes out of Seamus/Anstey/Al's mouth's. yet, when I point out the numerous times in the past where I've not supported the Tigers in one way or another, it seems to fall on deaf ears. So, allow me to repeat: Seamus McPeake was pretty classless

[Coachpete]

And for the record, allow me to highlight the contents of the above post yet again. It seems I'm constantly critiqued for being a Tigers fanboy, hopelessly incapable of any form of objectivity, and who'll back every word that comes out of Seamus/Anstey/Al's mouth's. yet, when I point out the numerous times in the past where I've not supported the Tigers in one way or another, it seems to fall on deaf ears. So, allow me to repeat: Seamus McPeake was

OOOOOOOOO......huge admission from the Vert man (when everybody else just thinks it was McPeake being the c*nt he always is)

[Cussy]

In other news, Tim Johnson from Firepower recently said he didn't like the way that Christopher Skase ripped off thousands of investors. I guess he isn't such a bad guy after all.

[Lethal Vertical]

Yep.

I agree.

[Stumps]

Ultimately it's gotta be a basketball decision. In terms of whether you keep the guy on the roster, it has to be decided on the basis of what's gonna help the team win.
That's exactly the sort of short-sighted, selfish thinking on the part of some teams that has got the league into the hole it's in today.

Enforce the salary cap? No, that's not going to help my moneybags team win.

Develop an effective parity system? Nope, if it can't be manipulated in my favour, that's not going going to help my team win.

Stop stockpiling talent into supporting and reserve roles rather than seeing those guys develop their games taking on more responsibility for poorer teams? That might help them and the competition as a whole, but it's not going to help my team win.

It's a pity that "a basketball decision" doesn't mean "a decision that helps promote the interests of basketball in this country".

[Lethal Vertical]

Is that a broken record I hear?

[Cussy]

It's not a charity, Stumps.

[curious]

Yes of course we all know why Wortho deserted the Taipans.
Money had nothing to do with it.
Seamus has the persona to attract this talent on his personality alone.

[Lethal Vertical]

Mackinnon's an ex-MVP, you see. The Tigers should've gone with Hoare, to give someone else a chance to sign him.

Same with Wortho, Melbourne already had enough talent at forward with Tommy Greer and Mackinnon, so they should've given another team a go. If Wortho ended up at Cairns (or Wollongong) those teams could give it a real shake. Even it up a bit, you know! Stupid bloody Tigers, always going with what they think will help their team win. They clearly should be making moves to help the other teams win!

I wonder if Stumps was as adamant about this back when the Kings were stockpiled with talent? Or 2003, when the Kings has the best import pairing plus the cream of the Aussie crop. How'd they end up with such a good team!?

[Cussy]

There is nothing wrong with the Tigers or any team getting the talent (ie keeping Mac and Hoare). The issue if the deceitful way they constantly bend the rules and get away with. Those rules are in place to ensure the league survives, not an obstacle in the way of McPeake (ch)eating his way to the top.

[Stumps]

Is that a broken record I hear?
You put forward a view. I pointed out why it was a short-sighted one to have. If you continue to put forward the same view, I will continue to point out why it is wrong. If you don't like the sound of the broken record, stop putting it on the turntable.

[Lethal Vertical]

You know The Kings really should not have signed Chris Williams that year.

They obviously had that bad attitude of wanting their team to win. What short-sighted, selfish thinking! Look what happened to the league as a result!

There was another option, which had parity in mind. When they looked at Chris Williams and thought they could be recruiting a star, they should've looked at the roster and said "hang on a second, we've already got a gun big or two, we've already got a star import who can shoot 20 a game, lets give someone else a call and pass on the reference. Who's had some average imports the last couple of years....How Bout the Tigers?"

[Lethal Vertical]

There is nothing wrong with the Tigers or any team getting the talent (ie keeping Mac and Hoare). The issue if the deceitful way they constantly bend the rules and get away with. Those rules are in place to ensure the league survives, not an obstacle in the way of McPeake (ch)eating his way to the top.

We had these discussions last year.

Everyone insisted they'd done something wrong with the Johnson thing (even Tigers fans- ie: Singy), and when it was discussed to the nth degree we realised they were not breaking any rules, only using two YAPS which was perfectly acceptable, as the rules were open to interpretation. Ie: They were doing nothing wrong. (Except overspending, which most clubs do, so you can't pinpoint the Tigers as massive culprits without mentioning all the others).

This year there's been the Mackinnon appeal. No one really knows what arguments the Tigers put forward for the re rating but We do know that there's legal avenues of appealing within the NBL rules, and there's no evidence to suggest the Tigers had any undue influence or that anything dodgy went on. So again, you can't pin anything on them. They've done nothing wrong.

[Cussy]

I know we had these discussions last year. We have them every month. It's because you intentionally avoid the common sense that is written in front of you. The two points you brought up are the most minor examples you could have mentioned but you only mentioned those two because they conveniently fit your point of view.

You often complain about the argument going around in circles, and you have so much more important stuff to do. You clearly don't. I'll say this from the start, if this turns in to another lengthy discussion, and we both make points back and forth, the moment you take certain points of out context and refuse to respond to others is the moment I call you a dickhead and leave it at that, ok?

[Lethal Vertical]

You put forward a view. I pointed out why it was a short-sighted one to have. If you continue to put forward the same view, I will continue to point out why it is wrong. If you don't like the sound of the broken record, stop putting it on the turntable.

I didnt put forward any such view in this thread! I was commenting on the Hoare vs Mackinnon decision and pointing out that from a clubs point of view, decisions about signing players need to be determined based on basketball factors. Emotional and loyalty factors need to be a very minor consideration in comparison. Thats all I was commenting on- and you took your liberty and started crapping on about all the Tigers supposed misdemeanours and the woes of the league. In other words, you're a broken record, you start going on about things when no one else has even made any comment on them.

[Stumps]

I wonder if Stumps was as adamant about this back when the Kings were stockpiled with talent?
Anybody with a decent long-term memory or access to Derek's backups knows that I was. For me, the highlight of parity and sustainability for the league was a season in which the Kings got bundled in the first round by the Crocs. More recently, the minute the Saville signing was announced I was on record as saying that while I greatly respected him as a player, I thought it was a terrible thing for the league and it was a tragedy that he didn't remain with the Hawks.

I don't want the fact that I'm in the richest market in Australia to give my team an advantage, or a disadvantage. I never wanted a rorting owner to spend other people's money to buy stacked lineups. The sweetest achievement would have been if the Kings had won a title back in the early 90s when Wrublewski was in his penny-pinching phase of strictly abiding by the cap to both the letter and spirit. If they'd won when the league was letting them totally take the piss at the end of the 90s, it would have been a hollow victory indeed.

What you don't seem to understand is that I would be utterly stoked to be following a financially viable basketball competition with n teams where the team I followed had a 1 in n chance every season of winning the title. With a couple of honourable exceptions, I certainly don't think that the vast majority of Tigers fans would share that view -- their owner certainly wouldn't.

Your downfall in these debates will always be that you are motivated by what is (short-sightedly) good for your team and your team alone, while I am motivated by what is good for the league and the sport (knowing that those benefits will ultimately flow down to ALL teams and their fans). You, and your beloved owner, just can't get your head around that idea. It's all about "basketball decisions" to you.

[Lethal Vertical]

The two points you brought up are the most minor examples you could have mentioned but you only mentioned those two because they conveniently fit your point of view.



What other examples can you give from the past couple of seasons?

[Stumps]

I didnt put forward any such view in this thread! I was commenting on the Hoare vs Mackinnon decision and pointing out that from a clubs point of view, decisions about signing players need to be determined based on basketball factors. Emotional and loyalty factors need to be a very minor consideration in comparison.
That's your view, and I'm disagreeing and pointing out that that's the attitude which has dumped the league in the hole it's in today. Sport can't be successful unless it appeals to the emotions, including concepts like loyalty. If a club displays that it is purely mercenary, why wouldn't the fans be exactly the same?

Thats all I was commenting on- and you took your liberty and started crapping on about all the Tigers supposed misdemeanours and the woes of the league. In other words, you're a broken record, you start going on about things when no one else has even made any comment on them.
The problem is that you are not intelligent enough to see the connection. The second somebody even references the Tigers in a less than favourable light, your brain goes into defensive mode and shuts down, protecting your fanatical dogma from any accidental exposure to evidence or logical discourse so as to preserve your capacity for self-delusion.

[Cussy]

The two points you brought up are the most minor examples you could have mentioned but you only mentioned those two because they conveniently fit your point of view.


What other examples can you give from the past couple of seasons?

Dickhead!!

[Lethal Vertical]

hahaha.

If you've got some good examples of McPeake "cheating his way to the top" over the past season or two, go for it.

Otherwise, keep calling me names! That's amusing too.

I get to have a discussion with you, or be entertained by you. Either way, I'm happy.

[gangsta boo]

2003, when the Kings has the best import pairing plus the cream of the Aussie crop. How'd they end up with such a good team!?

Was their a crystal ball to predict how the imports would go? Kavossy was trialling with the Kings before he was signed . Chris Williams was straight out of college

A team that had won NOTHING previously and that almost blinked out of existance in that offseason was held together by Brett Brown. Goorjian took over , added the final roster spot in Brad Sheridan and David Stiff was picked up mid season. A lot of pieces that came together at the right time, hardly talent hoarding stuff there

[Lethal Vertical]

That's your view, and I'm disagreeing and pointing out that that's the attitude which has dumped the league in the hole it's in today. Sport can't be successful unless it appeals to the emotions, including concepts like loyalty. If a club displays that it is purely mercenary, why wouldn't the fans be exactly the same?

Are you being serious?

So for example, the Tigers should keep Hoare simply because he's a favourite son of the club, regardless other factors?- ie: If they think Mackinnon's a more talented player and a better fit in the team?


The problem is that you are not intelligent enough to see the connection. The second somebody even references the Tigers in a less than favourable light, your brain goes into defensive mode and shuts down, protecting your fanatical dogma from any accidental exposure to evidence or logical discourse so as to preserve your capacity for self-delusion.

Let me get this straight- You're arguing that clubs should not use basketball related factors and wanting to win as the major consideration for signing players to their teams, and you're simultaneously accusing me of being illogical and deluded? hmmmm....! It is a friday arvo, so I sincerely hope you're taking the piss my friend.

[Stumps]

If you've got some good examples of McPeake "cheating his way to the top" over the past season or two, go for it.
Careful though, the second you start doing this you'll be accused of being a broken record and ignored.

Basically, Tigers fans* enjoy their wilful ignorance. It's the only way they can enjoy the fruits of such unacceptable conduct. That's why as soon as you actually answer their challenges, folks like Lethal Vertical and ygoslo just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "LA LA LA LA LA!"

* There are obviously exceptions, and you all know who they are.

[Cussy]

hahaha.

If you've got some good examples of McPeake "cheating his way to the top" over the past season or two, go for it.

Otherwise, keep calling me names! That's amusing too.

I get to have a discussion with you, or be entertained by you. Either way, I'm happy.

I did lay down the rules. If you do it again, you don't deserve more than insults.

- The Johnson thing wasn't about YAP's, it was about throwing an unrealisitic amount of money at a rookie who was destined to be 9th or 10th man.
- The Rashad Tucker sacking and re-signing.
- Over paying players. The league drew a line in the sand a few years ago and said in order for the league to survive, no team can pay over x amount. McPeake (owner and board member) chose to ignore that for his own benefit
- Any time he made a public display of petulance, where he put his own teams benefit over that of the league.

ALL of thse factors are infinitely worse when they are performed by a NBL board member.

[curious]

Jeez.
Corletto a 1 point player.
Only kept in the side because of that low rating.
Remember the Tucker rule and the Dench rule?
Need we go on?
Should we mention the renos for all the favoured players that Seamus has provided?
Should we mention the (alleged) salary cap breaches?
Best thing about the nNBL is that Seamus isn't involved at any Board level.
There is some hope.

[Cussy]

Careful though, the second you start doing this you'll be accused of being a broken record and ignored.

Basically, Tigers fans* enjoy their wilful ignorance. It's the only way they can enjoy the fruits of such unacceptable conduct. That's why as soon as you actually answer their challenges, folks like Lethal Vertical and ygoslo just stick their fingers in their ears and shout "LA LA LA LA LA!"

* There are obviously exceptions, and you all know who they are.

I know, I can predict his outs now. He won't want to respond to certain points, claim it's because they are irrelevant or have been done to death, even though he asked me to name certain events.

[Stumps]

So for example, the Tigers should keep Hoare simply because he's a favourite son of the club, regardless other factors?- ie: If they think Mackinnon's a more talented player and a better fit in the team?
I'm not saying it needs to be applied to any single example. It's about the club's culture and their pattern of behaviour over time. There's no question that they have adhered to your philosophy of "basketball decisions first". There's no question that McPeake, in his role as director of the NBL, has adhered to a philosophy of "Melbourne Tigers basketball decisions first". In both cases, this has produced dividends for the club in on-court results. How has it helped them off court though? How is McPeake going to spin a profit this season now that the league has become a national laughing stock and is falling apart around him? For sport to be interesting and popular, it needs to be competitive, and possess integrity. McPeake and others have completely forgotten this and sold out long-term viability for some short-term satisfaction.

Let me get this straight- You're arguing that clubs should not use basketball related factors and wanting to win as the major consideration for signing players to their teams, and you're simultaneously accusing me of being illogical and deluded? hmmmm....!
I am accusing you of being illogical and deluded precisely because you have completely misstated my position (probably deliberately, or at least subsconsciously so in order to protect your self-delusion).

Let's summarise what actually happened by restating the two key sentences.

LETHAL VERTICAL: "Emotional and loyalty factors need to be a very minor consideration in comparison [to basketball factors]."
STUMPS: "That's your view, and I'm disagreeing and pointing out that that's the attitude which has dumped the league in the hole it's in today."

Never have I said clubs should not use basketball factors, nor that they should not be major factors. I am pointing out that other factors, such as the long-term health of the competition and the ability to capture and retain the imagination of the fanbase, are much more than "very minor" considerations when it comes to sustaining a successful sporting club and competition.

McPeake is the shonky builder who celebrates ripping off his first five customers to the tune of thousands of bucks but now wonders why he can't find anybody else who wants to hire him to build a house.

[Lethal Vertical]

- The Johnson thing wasn't about YAP's, it was about throwing an unrealisitic amount of money at a rookie who was destined to be 9th or 10th man.

See below re: Over paying players. This is the same as your other criticism.


- The Rashad Tucker sacking and re-signing.

Ok, so that's one (Cant remember details but I'll take your word for it).


- Over paying players. The league drew a line in the sand a few years ago and said in order for the league to survive, no team can pay over x amount. McPeake (owner and board member) chose to ignore that for his own benefit

You need to seperate McPeake from his board position. You are criticising him for things he has done as owner of the Tigers (ie: Over paying players), so you need to equally criticise all the other owners who have done the same- Groves, Cowan, Taipans owners, Breakers Owners. Go on, go at them with equal vigor as Mcpeake- thus is consistent.


- Any time he made a public display of petulance, where he put his own teams benefit over that of the league.

This proves, at most that McPeake is a dummy spitting prick, not that he "cheats his way to the top". I'm not arguing that McPeake is a great bloke.

So, we have one example from four years ago, and we have McPeake over paying his players, which most of the league has done for years. I'm afraid that's not much of a defense of your claim that he "constantly bends the rules" and "cheats his way to the top". Not when all the other teams at the top are cheating too.

Why aren't you going on about Cowan cheating his way to the top last year? And The breakers? They were both overpaying. Be consistent and criticise all the others, or admit you just think Seamus is a prick and that's the extent of it.

[Cussy]

No, you idiot, I do not need to separate McPeake from his board position. It was his board position which made those actions infinitely worse. You can't conveniently separate him from a role which he put aside for his own personal gain.

Daniel Johnson - I haven't doubled up on that point. It is different. You have a rookie, who is not going to be playing many minutes, especially behind the talent they had, who could have helped out other clubs. But instead, you insert an owner who doesn't hesitate to spend over the cap, make an unrefusable offer to that rookie. So not only does he cheat, he goes against the very nature of the league doing it's best to even out the competition. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Tucker - every time it gets mentioned, you feign ignorance. Are you Vincent "The Chin" Gigante?

[Stumps]

LV, if you're actually trying to argue that somehow McPeake doesn't deserve singling out for the atrocious impact he has had on this league, and you're determined to dilute his blame by pointlessly asking for it to distributed equally to others, then answer me this.

Name one person who can match McPeake in all the following areas:

1. Present on the NBL board for the entire period of the decline of the league
2. Paying as much over the cap as his team has for as long a duration as his team has
3. Exploiting and manufacturing "loopholes" in a parity regime that that person had a hand in implementing and administering, in at least one new case per 18 months

That's just three items -- I'm sure it would be easy to come up with more (I've barely touched on the unquestionable conflict of interest, which is probably the worst of all) -- but if you think other people must be named in the same breath as McPeake, find me just one person who can match McPeake for compliance with all three of the criteria above. The only person who even comes close is Groves, and I gave him a proportionate amount of crap when he was around too.

[Stumps]

Daniel Johnson - I haven't doubled up on that point. It is different. You have a rookie, who is not going to be playing many minutes, especially behind the talent they had, who could have helped out other clubs. But instead, you insert an owner who doesn't hesitate to spend over the cap, make an unrefusable offer to that rookie. So not only does he cheat, he goes against the very nature of the league doing it's best to even out the competition.
He then further stiffs the rookie over by taking away his YAP position in the roster as soon as he needs to juggle the points to fit in another personnel move.

[Lethal Vertical]

Stumps, I said McPeake has not cheated his way to the top.

You seem to have delusions of granduer about McPeakes board position. IMO, this stuff would've gone down exactly the same over the last four years, McPeake or no McPeake. We've been over this before- McPeake was one on a board of several. And unless you can actually produce some of this magical evidence you've whispered about in the past which says McPeake somehow single handedly made decisions for other people, then forget about it.

[Stumps]

Stumps, I said McPeake has not cheated his way to the top.
1. Has McPeake cheated?
2. Has McPeake got to the top?
3. Is there any relationship between 1 and 2?

Most informed and unbiased observers would answer "yes" to all three.

You seem to have delusions of granduer about McPeakes board position.
Really? Please do share with me your superior understanding of corporate administration. Forgive me for assuming that the sole common factor across a decade of the board, the guy who fronts journalists speaking on behalf of the league, the guy who further found his way onto the five-person board of basketball (along with two of his Tigers buddies), has had some not-insignificant level of influence on the NBL's running and policy.

IMO, this stuff would've gone down exactly the same over the last four years, McPeake or no McPeake.
That's possible, if Groves was powerful enough to control the league's agenda on his own, at least until his personal demise. We'll never know the answer to that one. What is obvious, however, is that McPeake has been the single most influential figure, one whose conduct as both a team owner and a board member has directly contributed to several of the factors which any educated person must agree have led to the current abysmal state of the league. Not ALL of them -- find room for cowboys like Tim Johnston in your blame list, by all means -- but certainly several key factors.

We've been over this before- McPeake was one on a board of several. And unless you can actually produce some of this magical evidence you've whispered about in the past which says McPeake somehow single handedly made decisions for other people, then forget about it.
I've already forgotten about convincing you of anything -- if there is any weasel room whatsoever for you to scamper out of an attribution of blame at any Melbourne Tiger, you will take it for your own mental health, we all know this. If a Tiger was on trial, and DNA evidence was presented which demonstrated a 99.9999% chance that the Tiger in question was the person who committed the offence, you would still cling to that 0.00001% as a failure by the prosecution to prove their case.

[Lethal Vertical]

I hold back from comment at a lot of what you say about various aspects of these issues, Stumps, simply because I don't have the knowledge. Unlike you, I don't read every press release with keen interest or follow every thread on here daily. One can't agree or disagree without first understanding, or without a full explanation.

What I can comment on though, is that your attempts to demonstrate the connection between McPeake's actions on the board and his actions as director are somewhere between speculative and undeniably weak. To be generous, I'll call them speculative. If you're trying to argue that McPeake somehow deliberately set up the league rules, to advantage himself, creating loopholes so he could exploit them, and so on, to gain advantage for the Tigers- that's the part of your argument where reason is replaced by rhetoric, substance is replace by style and substantiation is replaced by speculation.

[Stumps]

I hold back from comment at a lot of what you say about various aspects of these issues, Stumps, simply because I don't have the knowledge. Unlike you, I don't read every press release with keen interest or follow every thread on here daily. One can't agree or disagree without first understanding, or without a full explanation.
It's incredible that when people do choose to inform you, you first accuse them of being a broken record, then you conveniently forget what they've said the next time the discussion arises ... over and over again.

No, it's not incredible. It's to be expected -- you WANT to be ignorant so that you can maintain your one-eyed world view. We are all wasting our time.

What I can comment on though, is that your attempts to demonstrate the connection between McPeake's actions on the board and his actions as director are somewhere between speculative and undeniably weak. To be generous, I'll call them speculative. If you're trying to argue that McPeake somehow deliberately set up the league rules, to advantage himself, creating loopholes so he could exploit them, and so on, to gain advantage for the Tigers- that's the part of your argument where reason is replaced by rhetoric, substance is replace by style and substantiation is replaced by speculation.
Translation: "Sure, it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and when I cook it, it even tastes like a duck, but calling it a duck is mere speculation and undeniably weak."

[DDFan]

We are all wasting our time.

I agree.

Translation: "Sure, it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and when I cook it, it even tastes like a duck, but calling it a duck is mere speculation and undeniably weak."

We shouldn't eat ducks.

[djrod]

how about that Stephen Hoare eh?

[DDFan]

Hoare'll be great.
Now the Crocs should be on the look-out a fast little bloke. Every team needs, a fast little bloke.

[Da Houndawg #55]

- The Johnson thing wasn't about YAP's, it was about throwing an unrealisitic amount of money at a rookie who was destined to be 9th or 10th man.

Disagree.

The Johnson thing wasn't ENTIRELY about YAPs. But it is just another case, like the Tucker cut and re-sign, of a cynical exploitation that goes against the spirit of the rules in terms of YAPs... Another of the rules in which Seamus was a part, and then exploited the loophole created...

[Da Houndawg #55]

I hold back from comment at a lot of what you say about various aspects of these issues, Stumps, simply because I don't have the knowledge. Unlike you, I don't read every press release with keen interest or follow every thread on here daily. One can't agree or disagree without first understanding, or without a full explanation.

Read as: "I plead ignorance and blame you for not choosing to be as ignorant as myself by keeping informed of the developments and goings on within the league.

Until further notice, my position of 'Seamus is right, I'm sure of it but just don't know all of the fictitious evidence which supports that theory and completely absolves him of all blame. When I find it I'll get back to you on that one...' stands."

[Da Houndawg #55]

You need to seperate McPeake from his board position.
No... the league needed to do that.

Fortunately, it seems like they managed to get that done...

[Da Houndawg #55]

- Any time he made a public display of petulance, where he put his own teams benefit over that of the league.

This proves, at most that McPeake is a dummy spitting prick, not that he "cheats his way to the top". I'm not arguing that McPeake is a great bloke.

Unless I'm not mistaken, that wasn't specifically regarding Seamus spitting the dummy in terms of recent finals activity. But rather speaking out against and looking to block any sensible notion purely because it may assist other teams from becoming more competitive...

[Da Houndawg #55]

You need to seperate McPeake from his board position. You are criticising him for things he has done as owner of the Tigers...
And I'm sorry... but this just speaks fucking volumes of you.

No. He does not need to separate McPeake from his board position.

YOU need to separate McPeake from his board position... in order to justify the bullshit which he has perpetrated across a wide fucking scale in his time in this league in positions of power.

[Cussy]

Disagree.

The Johnson thing wasn't ENTIRELY about YAPs. But it is just another case, like the Tucker cut and re-sign, of a cynical exploitation that goes against the spirit of the rules in terms of YAPs... Another of the rules in which Seamus was a part, and then exploited the loophole created...

I should clarify, my issue with Daniel Johnson wasn't about his YAP status, it was about McPeake's willingness to throw that sort of money at a rookie when other clubs could have used him.
The league has made efforts to ensure there is an even level of talent. One board member decides that he will put that fundamental rule aside and cheat in order to acheive his preferred outcome.

[DJ Rod]

And they say us Croc fans ramble on, whinge and derail threads?????!

[mattic]

where reason is replaced by rhetoric, substance is replace by style and substantiation is replaced by speculation.

Must've been an interesting lecture that morning, as you clearly took notes and re-read them last night while masturbating furiously over your text books.

Wouldn't it be great to smack this **** in mouth?

[rjd]

It's great to see Hoare with a club. I'll secretly hope for Hoare to burn the Tigers the next time they play.

[meg]

It's great to see Hoare with a club. I'll secretly hope for Hoare to burn the Tigers the next time they play.

Careful. It's people like you that give Tigers supporters a good name. ;)

[Cussy]

And they say us Croc fans ramble on, whinge and derail threads?????!

I wouldn't have put you in the same category as some of the notorious Crocs fans, but if the shoe fits....

[Lethal Vertical]

No, it's not incredible. It's to be expected -- you WANT to be ignorant so that you can maintain your one-eyed world view. We are all wasting our time.




The Tigers just let go two of my favourite players, and one of those two happened in circumstances that showed Seamus McPeake to be acting very classlessly. We've now signed the player I most love to hate. I've refused to buy a membership for the second season in a row because I think the prices are a rip off. The Dragons were my second favourite team, they had many players I liked to watch and they brought rivalry back to Victorian basketball. I was happy they beat us in the grand final rather than someone else. We finally had a second successful franchise in Melbourne again. Now, they're gone. I'm a basketball man through and through, and a Tigers supporter, but my interest in the NBL, and the Tigers is the lowest it's been for a long, long time.

My "self delusion" and "one eyed world view" is a myth, perpetuated only by the cognitive confusion eminating from inside your head. Sure, there's a biased breeze blowing within me, as there is inside the heart of many a passionate fan. But you allow that breeze to succumb to the wild winds of your imagination, and so it's time to take the step out from your imaginary world and into reality.

Your claims are flimsy, and are often based on speculation and hearsay evidence about McPeake that you fail to provide but expect others to swallow. The extent of some of your statements, and the way in which you trapse around these forums, carrying on about him and the Tigers like a broken record is just silly. There's far more evidence that you're anti Tigers than there is evidence I'm insanely biased like you say.

[Cussy]

There's far more evidence that you're anti Tigers than there is evidence I'm insanely biased like you say.

hahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha

That was a joke, right?

Bias isn't even the issue here. The issue is your ridiculous arguments, like "you must isolate McPeake from his duties as a board member before you criticise him, and your rebuttals consist of "well, that was flimsy."

You are kidding yourself if you think that these broken record conversations are the result of anything but your immaturity and stupidity.

And I'll agree with mattic's last comment too.

[cantremeber]

Must've been an interesting lecture that morning, as you clearly took notes and re-read them last night while masturbating furiously over your text books.

Wouldn't it be great to smack this XXX in mouth?

Tsk tsk tsk. There are Juniors here, you know

[DDFan]

Wouldn't it be great to smack this **** in mouth?

Let's get physical
physical
I wanna get physical
physical


Ooops, wrong thread.


WTF is with you guys?

[shike]

Wouldn't it be great to smack this **** in mouth?


language not appropriate on here, so take your filthy mouth else where.

[Cussy]

How does quoting the "offensive" comment, or even bringing it to everyone's attention, make it so much better for the kiddies?

[gangsta boo]

What happened to the swear filter anyway?

[cantremeber]

How does quoting the "offensive" comment, or even bringing it to everyone's attention, make it so much better for the kiddies?

Without knowing who you were replying to...I did XXXX out his stupid choice of words. and made a complaint to management but clearly they could give a ratz arse.

And I'd ask you - rather than taking an offhand dig at the critics - why not direct your judgement at the offender?

[Da Houndawg #55]

I punched it so f*ing hard in its (that dastardly word rhyming with hunt!) that it shit itself, (roosternoggin).

[Cussy]

Without knowing who you were replying to...I did XXXX out his stupid choice of words. and made a complaint to management but clearly they could give a ratz XXXX.

And I'd ask you - rather than taking an offhand dig at the critics - why not direct your judgement at the offender?

Because I don't really care about a swear word that might appear on an internet forum. Children shouldn't be using the internet unsupervised, and anyone old enough to read this would have heard every word imaginable by now.

Even though you XXXX the word out, anyone who wasn't already aware of the offending comment would have then gone and searched for it to see what the XXXX meant, therefore you brought it back to everyone's intention.

[cantremeber]

Because I don't really care about a swear word that might appear on an internet forum. Children shouldn't be using the internet unsupervised, and anyone old enough to read this would have heard every word imaginable by now.

Even though you XXXX the word out, anyone who wasn't already aware of the offending comment would have then gone and searched for it to see what the XXXX meant, therefore you brought it back to everyone's intention.

So at the end of the day, you thought it best to criticise my call for better manners rather than to direct your criticism as Mattic. Figures........

I got it.

[DDFan]

Kissy kissy, nice big smacky-poos on the lips to all you headfucks.

FFS, I don't know what more I can do to bring the sane community back to it's senses.

note: Posted by forum nutcase with the paperwork to back it uP. :p

It's all fun.

[ygoslo7]

For christ's sake. This forum is in serious danger of becoming a parody...

If the decision wasn't communicated to Stephen personally that is very disappointing, and does (if it is true) reflect negatively on the Tigers organisation. The decision itself, however, does not. I don't agree with it, but it is no different to decisions that are made by each team before every season.

I reiterate the fact that I wish Stephen all the luck in the world for the upcoming season. I'll now have a second team.

I'm going to ignore the rest of the crap in this thread. Probably because I'm a one eyed Tigers supporter who is incapable of seeing reason.

[franky123]

Its most definitely true. The first contact Stephen had with either Al or Seamus post game 5 was the day after Grantley Bernard's report in the HS a few weeks ago. So a meeting was set up, and Al didn't even have the balls to go to that. I know this thread has become Seamus bashing, and fair enough too, but Al has shown himself to be classless in this whole situation as well. But he's well known for that around the club. Never known a coach to be so disliked by his own players.

Anyway, so Stephen Hoare's a croc. Good luck to him, bet Wayne gives him a big intro when the Crocs come to the cage in week 3.

[Cussy]

You can't really call him a coach, either. More of a concierge to an bucketload of talent. I'd like to see how he goes when he has to build a team from scratch.

[DDFan]

FFS, now it's gonna become a Goorj-ba$hing thread. :p

[mattic]

Phil and Bob - United in idiocy.

[DDFan]

Phil and Bob - United in idiocy.
You've been watch'n too much gay porn.

[cantremeber]

Phil and Bob - United in idiocy.

Who knows what it is you're trying to say but at least this time, you managed to do so without bringing the forum down to your level.

Well done! You're learning.

BTW...how is that ridiculously large porn collection that you have? Heard all about it.

[Cussy]

You can't talk about porn, there are kids on this forum.

[DDFan]

You can't talk about porn, there are kids on this forum.
Ca$h Converter$ then.


HaPPy now? ;)

[Lethal Vertical]

You can't really call him a coach, either. More of a concierge to an bucketload of talent.

TC= Joining the Tiger hating queue. This is an example of what I would call "evidence of anti Tigers bias". No one, who is actually being serious (which, I assume you are at least partially) could say this about a guy who's helped his team to two championships from four grand finals over the past four years. One only has to look at the first game Al ever coached in the Anstey era- in September 2005 against Wollongong at The Cage- to understand the huge culture shift and on-court difference he's brought to the organisation. Defense wins championships. Al understands this, Lindsay didn't.

You are right if you are basically implying that it'd be good to see Al with less talent at his disposal to decide if his name deserves to be mentioned alongside a great like Goorjian. But we can only judge Al based on what he has had. And in the past 4 years, make no mistake, he's been one of the best coaches in the league.

[Cussy]

While comment was just a joke to try and stir the pot, I will still question Al as a coach when he takes the GOAT and totally screws with their chemistry with things like experimenting with unproven point guards. He has been gifted a stacked squad each year and I'd say that anyone with the talent at his disposal could have acheived the results he did.

[Stumps]

To go further off topic, it's interesting that both Smyth and Westover each won a fair number of titles but are both famous for making a critical roster decision (the two-guard Boomers and Barlow at point) that had every fan of the game predicting, quite accurately it turns out, that it would never work.

Was it a case of success leading to too much ego, and the belief that any gamble they took, no matter how far off the wall, would ultimately come up smelling of roses?

[rjd]

The Barlow experiment failed dismally, but at least Westover made the necessary adjustment to make the Grand Final. I wonder if Smyth would've run with just two guards again if he managed to hold onto the Boomers job at the time. I doubt it, but Smyth's experiment was inexcusable because he didn't provide himself with an opportunity to adjust if it failed. By the way, isn't our current national coach the same coach who tried the Neilsen at SF experiment?

Maybe we need a thread for "NBL experiments: successes and failures". I'd put Nielsen at C or the 3-pointer-focused small-ball offense experiment as one of the most successful (credit Goorj).

[curious]

To go further off topic, it's interesting that both Smyth and Westover each won a fair number of titles but are both famous for making a critical roster decision (the two-guard Boomers and Barlow at point) that had every fan of the game predicting, quite accurately it turns out, that it would never work.
Was it a case of success leading to too much ego, and the belief that any gamble they took, no matter how far off the wall, would ultimately come up smelling of roses?
With Seamus 'helping' in the selection it's always going to be a mixed bag.
Nothing has changed and with the $$$'s he is already throwing around I hope they fail again.
LV's one eyed views are deplorable.
To condone Seamus' bending of the rules and (alleged) salary cap breaches is pathetic.
Yet even in the nNBL it will continue.

[j-mac]

Hope everything goes well for Hoare up there.

Can someone please explain to me the Rashad Tucker "thing".

[isaac]

Which thing? The "dangerous to women" thing, or the thing at the Tigers?

[j-mac]

Well I meant with the Tigers, but how about both?

[isaac]

How about, in the interest of avoiding lawsuits, we skip the first one.

The Tigers 'thing' was that Tucker's points rating dropped in the second year of a multi-year contract. So while you could keep a player's low rating through the duration of a contract (e.g., sign someone while they were rated a 3, and lock them in for that value even if their external rating jumped to 8 within a year or two), the Tigers cut him and resigned him to a new contract. Would've been same money, just exploiting a loophole in the way the points system was arranged.

[j-mac]

And no other team would do that if they had the chance.

[isaac]

Other teams have done it since. The argument, however, is that exploiting that loophole went against the spirit of the points arrangement and that McPeake (as a board member) should have made the league aware of the loophole rather than exploited it.

Bit like someone making Australian tax policy while exploiting things, that have been overlooked by the ATO, for personal gain.

I think it's a reasonable argument to make, even if it's not going to be a black and white thing for all people.

[curious]

Crocs change uniform colours to BLACK.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2009/07/16/64365_crocs.html

[ltaus14]

looks good

[Cussy]

Other teams have done it since. The argument, however, is that exploiting that loophole went against the spirit of the points arrangement and that McPeake (as a board member) should have made the league aware of the loophole rather than exploited it.

Bit like someone making Australian tax policy while exploiting things, that have been overlooked by the ATO, for personal gain.

I think it's a reasonable argument to make, even if it's not going to be a black and white thing for all people.

It's not a charity.

[Derek]

''We were keen to make sure we have a very strong, recognisable playing strip and branding in the marketplace,'' Crocs chief executive Ian Smythe said.You DID. Just because the Fury also chose green doesn't make the Crocs' uniform suddenly a bad choice.

(sigh)

I don't mind the uniform itself. At least there's only one other team now wearing black at home (Breakers). Remember when it seemed every team in the NBA had to have a black or purple strip?

''When we play at home, the playing strip will have 'Crocodiles' across the chest and when we're away we will play with 'Townsville' across it,'' Smythe said.And this I like.

Nice big pics of both sets of uniforms here. (http://www.crocodiles.com.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&id=78262)

Ninja edit: Crocs officially announce Homicide's return: http://www.crocodiles.com.au/default.aspx?s=newsdisplay&id=78258

DN

[haggard]

What is with that ugly font on the uniforms??
Lets hope it looks better in real life than it does on those drawings.

[Some Devil]

...Just because the Fury also chose green doesn't make the Crocs' uniform suddenly a bad choice.

Agreed. The Crocs' uniforms didn't need changing, but that's Ol' Smythey for you. But come on, Lunchbox - those new uniforms look flat-out horrendous. At least the pictures do, anyway; maybe they'll look a little better in the flesh. But if they're gonna change the primary colour, why not just rock the blue again?

[KEVY47]

Can't say i'm a fan of the Black uniforms, more suited to the mid/late 90's (insert Tville 10yrs behind joke here) when Hawks, Kings, Perth all had black kits.

Kings and Hawks jumped on seemingly following Chicago's black and red pinstripe kit with their own black with pinstripes.

Toronto, Minnesota, Sacramento, Atlanta, Miami, Orlando and probably a bunch more that escape me at the moment have all experimented with black over the last decade or so.

Back to Crocs changing to stand out from the Fury... they are nothing alike Fury use a nice limey/green.

The article mentioned using "TOWNSVILLE" on away jerseys - i can't imagine that CROCS font looking any good.

The uniforms them self, look like what Breakers had this year just swapping blue with green.

edit: Away uniform with that font...
ouch (http://www.crocodiles.com.au/site/_content/image/00122152-fullsize.jpg)

[Derek]

Agreed. The Crocs' uniforms didn't need changing, but that's Ol' Smythey for you. But come on, Lunchbox - those new uniforms look flat-out horrendous. At least the pictures do, anyway; maybe they'll look a little better in the flesh. But if they're gonna change the primary colour, why not just rock the blue again?

(Townsville's traditional sporting colours are royal blue and gold- think Crocs' uniforms circa 2001- which is why the original Suns and Cowboys unis were blue and gold.)

I'm reserving my judgement until I see them for real, although I did chuckle at the More than five months work went into the final product bit in the media release. "Black with green side panel" took FIVE MONTHS?

Maybe the black needs some sort of highlight that shows up- remember those old Orlando Magic unis that had the stars in the fabric (http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1311524)? Man, they ruled. Or was that just me?

If you want some fun with fonts, a typeface called Romulan Falcon (http://www.dafont.com/romulan-falcon.font) bears a striking resemblance to the Crocs' logo font. (Also that of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.)

DN

[Bench Warmer]

I actually like the green, thought it was about the best uniform in the league last season. It's a bit of shame we feel the need to run a mile if another sporting code happens to have the same colours.

[Vic Sage]

Do black uniforms aid in free throw shooting?

[Derek]

Given the number of years Shaquille O'Neal wore black on various rosters, I'd say the answer is no.

DN

[Stumps]

Do black uniforms aid in free throw shooting?
Yes -- that of the wearers' opponents (http://versita.metapress.com/content/451j5w6n81043633/).

[Clips]

Yes -- that of the wearers' opponents (http://versita.metapress.com/content/451j5w6n81043633/).
Wow they really do study everything. Home court advantage DOES exist. :p

[ygoslo7]

Looks good IMO. The green was starting to look a little tired.

[Some Devil]

Maybe the black needs some sort of highlight that shows up- remember those old Orlando Magic unis that had the stars in the fabric (http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1311524)? Man, they ruled. Or was that just me?

No, it wasn't just you - they did rule.