8 second backcourt

[SLICE23]

Just wondering or is it just me,This year seems to be that the morans (oh whoops referees) are either too slow in counting or cant count.
Numerous times this year i have seen 8 seconds down in the backcourt and they are still counting when its actually already expired, my calculations are 8 taken away from 24 is 16 so when so when the shot clocks gets to that blow your whistle ive seen games where the clock has got to 14 sec and even 11 before it was called now you cant tell me that the refs are told not look at the clock !!! i know you do.
Is anyone experincing this problem?

[Bobby]

Funny thing. During a friendly game where the player said they would call their own fouls, I ran the 24-second clock. The clock reached to 16 when I ordered the game siren to go off. I said "Eight Seconds!" from the tower. The player couldn't believe it and said, "Bobby, that's not right. The 24-second operator isn't to catch the eight seconds!"

To me, the rule stating the 24-second operator cannot assist the officials in eight-second violations is wrong. The NBA 24-second devices are designed with a reset at 14 seconds for fouls. Why can't officials just program the second reset to be just 8 seconds for such situations in the last 24 seconds of a period?

[Skindog the Hawk]

We have been instructed not to take the 8 second count off the 24 second clock, for the fact that (especially at junior level) half the people who operate the shot clock have NFI.

As for being too slow...maybe it's that the defensive side is not playing full court defence...I know that generally most referees will give the benefit of the doubt to an offensive player who's unmarked when bringing the ball up, as opposed to rewarding the defence for sitting back in a quarter-court 2-3 zone... :?

Why can't officials just program the second reset to be just 8 seconds for such situations in the last 24 seconds of a period?

Because it's the referee's job.

SD.

[MacTavish]

Exactly what Skindog said.
Some operators reset the clock and start it when you have the ball baseline, so you may lose a second or two inbounding it.
I've seen this happen numerous times during my travels.

[revolution]

Skindog and MacTavish have excellent points. The problem is not solved by giving the 24 second operator additional responsibilities.

However, counting 8 seconds in the back court (especially with less experienced referees) often comes second to watching for fouls, travels, etc. This is particularly true when a team is applying defensive pressure in the back court. In such situations, it is important for the "lead" official to maintain a position near the centre line and assist with the backcourt count. It's all about teamwork and getting the call right for the players and coaches.

Although most referees do use the shot clock as a guide for the 8 second count, the referee is relying on the operator starting it when the count should commence. The referee obviously does this at their own peril. That said, I can't think of the last time a coach complained for being incorrectly penalised for an 8 second violation.

I don't think we should be programming the 24 second device to cater for 8 second counts in the last possessions of each period. The rule should be administered the same way throughout the entire game. It ain't broken, so leave it alone.

In other words ...
Is anyone experincing this problem?
No. Maybe your "moronic" attitude to referees has a role in attracting these problems to your team. :?: :wink:

[Blind Teddy]

Revolution : I think you will find the 8 second backcourt rule is being sadly missed by referees at certain stadiums. You can try to protect the refereeing paternity but if they would pay more attention to what's going on?? on the court instead of worrying about What's going on off it ??
This is being missed at least 2-3 times per game. No at this stage it is not costing wins but all hell will break loose when it does.
Slice 23 You are spot on with what's going on.

[revolution]

At what level are you talking about BT & SLICE23? In Victoria, 24 second clocks are only used in VJBL Championship and Big V upwards (Do MMBL use 24 second clocks?). Therefore, the situation can only be relevant for these leagues.

In the VJBL, the referees are rotated from stadium to stadium on a weekly basis. Therefore, a referee may only visit any particular stadium once or twice a season - admittedly, this is not always the case. The point is - no referee will officiate VBJL games at the same stadium week in, week out. I am not sure which stadiums you are talking about.

However, as Skindog stated, you cannot always rely on the parents to correctly start the clock in these situations. Therefore, the clock may get 14 or 11 because the scorer incorrectly started the shot clock before the control of the ball was gained. I can begin to tell you how many times a referee has arrived at game and had to explain the 24 second rule to a parent on the score bench. Sheesh ... it even happens at ABA level and they are paid officials.

Secondly, as referees, we receive a Points of Emphasis list from the leagues/BV every year. It usually contains topics such as Player/Coach Management, Travel, Heavy Contact, etc. In over ten years of officiating, I have never seen 8 second count appear on that list. If you truly believe it is a problem worth addressing, contact your BV representative and suggest it for next year's Referee Points of Emphasis. If it is happening as frequently and extensively as you suggest, it should be relatively easy to get support from BV and get it on the list.

You can try to protect the refereeing paternity but if they would pay more attention to what's going on??
I am not trying to protect any referee's dad. I hate it when they put the "P" key where the "FR" key usually goes. :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol:

[SLICE23]

Well it is c/ship in vjbl and Blind Teddy on the money it is happening a little more then it ever has, it will cost a game 1 day and as these teams all play full court man or press & zone is unheard of in c/ship.
My opinion too much leaneancy (spelling suxs) is on the offensive player no credit is given for defence.

[revolution]

Well ... if all two of you have noticed the increase, then we must have a problem. :roll: :wink:

[Blind Teddy]

Revolution : Paternity was correct after all, I have it on good advice that you are the father figure of all the umpiring fraternity. Take credit when you can get it you moron.[/b]

[revolution]

I am not so sure about your "good advice." But sweet talking me will get you nowhere. :roll:

[curious]

I saw it called recently. It was called when the clock was on 16 seconds.
Isnt the rule MORE than 8 seconds in the back court? Not EXACTLY 8 seconds?

[revolution]

The rule requires a team that is control of the ball to cause the ball to enter the front court within eight seconds.

Assuming the shot clock is set up, reset and started correctly, 16 seconds showing on the display suggests the team has been in control of the ball for more than 8 seconds. The shot clock normally sits on "24" for the first second. This ensures that "0" on the shot clock is actually 0, not a fraction of a second.

That means clock sits on "17" for the eighth second and "16" indicates you have entered the ninth second. If the ball is still in the backcourt, the shot clock shows "16" and the clock was started correctly, a violation has occurred.

[curious]

Yes forgeot about that 1st second of that. Silly me.

[Blind Teddy]

Revolution
What you are saying is that we are actually playing a 25 second clock
That's interesting?????????? I could have sworn it is 24 seconds.....

[SLICE23]

Rev....count me dowm 8 from 24 no matter which way the answer is 16.

[revolution]

I don't have the time or inclination to explain it to you. Curious seems to have worked it out by himself.

Come on now ... catch up.

[SLICE23]

when the 24 clock starts it deducts 1 sec off it has been this way since the inception of the 30 sec shot clock previously it was 20 sec as the voiolation (check my spelling) then it was 14 now because its 8 sec 16 is the cut off .

[SLICE23]

:lol: ha ha ha

[Wallitron]

I don't have the time or inclination to explain it to you. Curious seems to have worked it out by himself.

Come on now ... catch up.

Give him a break, he's blind. :) I have the time and inclination.

All he's saying is that the clock rounds up fractions of a second.
This means 23.6 seconds shows as 24.
16.3 seconds reads 17.
15.9 seconds reads 16.
0.4 seconds reads 1.

So the clock on 16 guarantees that the shot clock has been running at least 8 seconds. I recall the rule is that the referee must keep their own count.

[Skindog the Hawk]

I recall the rule is that the referee must keep their own count.

That is the rule now - there was an interpretation out there (possibly NBL only) that once the shot clock hit 15 that it was an automatic violation, however keep in mind that this is working with scorebench people who are experienced... :? 8)

SD.

[revolution]

I recall the rule is that the referee must keep their own count.
Yes it is ... but it is very hard to argue with the referee when the shot clock shows "16".

[Trent]

As one of these experienced shot clock operators that Skin Dog was referring to, there once was an edict to all scoretable officials that if a referee blew a back violation the shot clock operator was to immediately reset the shot clock ...

Revolution
What you are saying is that we are actually playing a 25 second clock
That's interesting?????????? I could have sworn it is 24 seconds.....

really in detail

the violations:
24.99 sec
8.99 sec
3.99 sec

[revolution]

Not really. The violation occurs when you exceed the time nominated by the rules and, as a consequence, an advantage/disadvantage situation that is not within the intended intepretation of the rules or spirit of the game is created. The referees are charged with the responsibility to assess the play and take appropriate action.

Therefore, four seconds in the key is not always a violation, nor is nine seconds in the backcourt. The underlying advantage/disadvantage princple will always create exceptions (refer Art 47.3).

I can't believe this topic is still going - good work guys :wink:

[Homer]

The referee isn't supposed to use the clock but try to sell a back court violation with 17 showing on the clock.

To Trent, I was of the belief that if we blew a violation with 17 on the clock, you guys would quickly reset it. If the clock showed 16 or sometimes 15 you would leave it there to help with the sell.

[Trent]

To Trent, I was of the belief that if we blew a violation with 17 on the clock, you guys would quickly reset it. If the clock showed 16 or sometimes 15 you would leave it there to help with the sell.

Homer, we are taught that once a whistle is blown and the referee indicates what his decision is (foul, violation etc) the shot clock operator reacts accordingly.

Insofar as a back court violation is concerned, it is all about teamwork. An experienced shot clock operator will reset the clock quickly if the clock shows 17 or more seconds and will hold the clock if on 16 or below.

Bearing in mind that the shot clock should not be started until the operator can definately see who has possesion of the ball. This may take an extra second especially if the operators view is blocked by other players.

[the_referee]

When i count 8 seconds in usually count 1 - 1000 2 - 2000 - 3000 - 4000 5-5000 etc I made the mistake of my count on the shot clock when i first started refereeing rep i made a call and it turned out they bench made a mistake instead of reseting the shot clock they stop it so after about 4 seconds i saw the shot clock with 15 seconds i immediatley called it ive learnt from my mistakes.

[TOP FLIGHT]

I know this is an old one but the 8 sec back court and the 5 sec inbound rules are not in my mind correct.

Lets take the 5 sec rule on an inbound - the ref counts to 4 in their usual manner and the inbounder lofts the ball to 1/2 way to a team mate -100% of the time the ref lets this go. Technically this is wrong as the ball is not in play untill touched, so why stop the count!

This also applies to the back court rule even though the clock clicks over the pass is made and in mid air the count should not stop untill touched.

If this theory is incorrect let me know.

PS it's not up to the score bench on 8 sec or 5 sec calls (refs job) thats why they get the big bucks

Doing some referee education with Scott Butler in Queensland and this example of the 8 seconds was brought up..

the count ends when the ball is touched in the front court.. however he also told us that if you called a 8 seconds while a pass was mid air to the front court that you be crucified....

[Greenie]

Doing some referee education with Scott Butler in Queensland and this example of the 8 seconds was brought up..

the count ends when the ball is touched in the front court.. however he also told us that if you called a 8 seconds while a pass was mid air to the front court that you be crucified....

Pfffttt, what would Scott Butler know!! :wink:

[Demented Referee]

Lets take the 5 sec rule on an inbound - the ref counts to 4 in their usual manner and the inbounder lofts the ball to 1/2 way to a team mate -100% of the time the ref lets this go. Technically this is wrong as the ball is not in play untill touched, so why stop the count!

Wrong the rule says take more than 5 secs to release.

[TOP FLIGHT]

Ooh yeah my bad what was i thinking I better put the cap back on my tin.

Hang on doesn't say inbound.

[Franklin]

When i count 8 seconds in usually count 1 - 1000 2 - 2000 - 3000 - 4000 5-5000 etc .

But shouldn't you start with zero (ie, 0-1000-1-1000-2-1000...? If you start with "1-1000-2 ..." then, when you've counted 2, only one second has elapsed?[/i]

I've had to quietly bring that to the attention of many officals from time to time...

Too many start their count at 1

the count should start at 0.00 seconds and end at
3.99 seconds for keyway
5.99 seconds for inbouncs
8.99 seconds for backcourt

[Demented Referee]

I've had to quietly bring that to the attention of many officals from time to time...

Too many start their count at 1

the count should start at 0.00 seconds and end at
3.99 seconds for keyway
5.99 seconds for inbouncs
8.99 seconds for backcourt

If you start with 1000 and 1 1 sec up at end

Now the rule is not nearly 4 secs but more than 3 so 3.00000001 is the violation theoretically but we make allowances ie attempting to leave etc

[player_coach]

The referee isn't supposed to use the clock but try to sell a back court violation with 17 showing on the clock.

To Trent, I was of the belief that if we blew a violation with 17 on the clock, you guys would quickly reset it. If the clock showed 16 or sometimes 15 you would leave it there to help with the sell.

You have to be joking! If you need the bench to help you out on making a call, what are you doing refereeing in the first place? IMO, if you are making the right calls, then you don't need to sell anything.

Back to the topic, I was always told that it was a count of 8, not exactly 8 seconds, despite it being the "8 second backcourt rule". So depending on how well the referee counts, it could be from 6 seconds to 10 seconds.

Has anyone else heard of this?

[qlder]

Back to the topic, I was always told that it was a count of 8, not exactly 8 seconds, despite it being the "8 second backcourt rule". So depending on how well the referee counts, it could be from 6 seconds to 10 seconds.

Has anyone else heard of this?
The ref starts the count at 1, i.e. with one second elapsed, count 1 and so on up to 8

[qlder]

I would say the issue is more one of each individual's interpretation as to how long a second is.

[Bobby]

Our scoreboard unit has an LCD console on the unit which marks actual game time. When the clock states "10:00" on the combination unit, the clock on the console says "10:00.0". When the clock states "9:59" on the unit, the console says "9:59.9" and starts counting in tenths.

There was a time (I believe Fair-Play did this) where in the final ten seconds, the 35-second unit used at Michigan State counted down tenths in the final ten seconds -- this was before the NCAA and the conferences ran edicts mandating the NBA-type game shot clock be used.